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K9Marz919 t1_ix4zgcc wrote

I’m not happy people got shot, but you have to a fucking idiot to bring a gun out to the bars. You have to be an even bigger idiot to be in law enforcement and think this was a good idea. VT still hiring schmucks to be cops

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therealrico t1_ix5aagq wrote

Deputies are the absolute bottom of the barrel when it comes to police in Vermont.

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Whydoyouhatefreedom t1_ix5eum4 wrote

I carry in bars all the time, but I don’t drink….

−53

IsraelZulu t1_ix5g56n wrote

It's usually illegal to carry in a bar, regardless of whether you're drinking. Laws vary by jurisdiction though, and there's a certain subset of (otherwise law-abiding) CCW practitioners who choose to carry regardless of whatever the law says.

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YPG-Got-Raqqa t1_ix9d8up wrote

lmao at people who think "hmm maybe if I go to this bar with a tool that can kill anyone I have a line of sight to it will make the bar safer!"

So annoying that anywhere people are eating dinner or having drinks some chud could be walking around just begging for an opportunity to use his gun.

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Whydoyouhatefreedom t1_ix9gvmb wrote

You’re are fucking dumb.

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YPG-Got-Raqqa t1_ix9i0ft wrote

Yeah I agree with you. It's insane how stupid these guys are. You can see in almost every bar in Rutland county some goober with a concealed pistol clearly visible.

They definitely believe that they are making the bar safer but obviously they aren't.

1

Corey307 t1_ix8c6oa wrote

Which is still a bad idea because the odds of getting into a fight at a bar are higher than pretty much any other place even if you’re sober because you’re surrounded by people who aren’t. This is coming from someone who carries daily.

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foxtrot_indigoo t1_ix8j271 wrote

With a proper retention holster and training I don’t see any issue. If I’m not drinking/DDing I’m carrying and obviously wouldn’t present the weapon at the level of bar fight. There are certainly other drunk idiots with guns out there along with your weekly shooting in take your pick city at a venues/clubs.

That being said I don’t really frequent shitty bars and most club type situations search so I guess I’m speaking about a subset of upper scale drinking establishments versus your dive/club.

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Corey307 t1_ix96xr5 wrote

Your situation is different, you’re not running into sad shitty people out looking for a fight.

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Eagle_Arm t1_ix56hs6 wrote

So then where should you wear a gun?

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Dire88 t1_ix59feh wrote

Where and when it is legal and responsible to do so.

It is illegal to carry a firearm in a bar in New York.

It is illegal to carry a firearm while intoxicated in New York.

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CountFauxlof t1_ix5d4bo wrote

I think LEOSA (which I find to be an infuriating law) would preempt that unless the individual bar specifically prohibited firearms (which it probably doesn’t because it’s nigh impossible to get a ccw permit as a regular schmuck on NYC).

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IsraelZulu t1_ix5ji31 wrote

After a quick Google and skim, I think you might be right.

For those unfamiliar, a very cursory reading of some top Google results turned up:

  • LEOSA is a federal law, which allows current and retired LEOs to carry their guns anywhere in the US despite local laws which would otherwise prohibit or restrict them.
  • There are some exceptions to LEOSA, particularly with regards to government property.
  • Notably, there does not appear to be any exception for bars, nor carrying while intoxicated, both of which would normally be off-limits in state or local laws.

I think the general intent of LEOSA isn't totally bad, but it's very poorly implemented. Allowing people covered under LEOSA to carry in places no other citizen would be allowed to carry under any circumstances is a particularly egregious overreach.

Of course, I could be wrong. Like I said, I only spent a few minutes Googling this so far. In this particular case, I think I'd be happier to be wrong.

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Dire88 t1_ix5pemo wrote

LEOSA is codified in 18 U.S. Code § 926B.

(C)(5) specifically outlines that it does not apply if the individual is intoxicated.

Article doesn't say he was, but 3am outside a bar does.

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CountFauxlof t1_ix5tqi4 wrote

I want to be very clear that I’m not defending the guy or LEOSA -I just wanted to point out that LEOs have a very specific protection in this situation that isn’t extended to other civilians.

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Corey307 t1_ix8cayj wrote

Not when you’re drinking/drunk that’s for sure.

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YPG-Got-Raqqa t1_ix9dpnq wrote

At the gun range.

The number of dudes that can only feel safe in bars if they have a pistol is sad.

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limeelsa t1_ix57dfv wrote

Wherever you feel you’re in danger! If that happens to be a bar, maybe you need to re-evaluate some things.

Edit: FFS I was being sarcastic 😒 I am not pro gun, I never feel like enough of a pussy that I need to public carry a gun. Goddamn

−13

Corey307 t1_ix8co08 wrote

There is a massive difference between carrying a gun to feel like a tough guy and carrying a gun because you’ve seen horrible things in this world. Smart people who carry carry concealed are the politest person in the room practicing deescalation and conflict avoidance because it’s your last option, not your first.

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IsraelZulu t1_ix5gid3 wrote

> This was the first time in 26 years Saratoga Police have discharged their weapon on the job.

Would be nice if we had more communities and police agencies that could maintain this kind of record.

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Unique-Public-8594 t1_ix50tvk wrote

Quick facts:

Broadway and Caroline Streets, Saratoga Springs.

3a, altercation between 3 or more people from Utica and an off-duty Rutland Sheriff.

Sheriff was ordered 8 times to get down on the ground and did not obey. Instead, he turned toward officers with gun in hand.

He (Vito Caselnova, IV) took 10 bullets. Expected to survive. His girlfriend was also wounded in the shooting.

Update/details of altercation: https://www.news10.com/news/crime/police-investigating-saratoga-shooting/

Source/Name of sheriff, includes 3 videos: https://wnyt.com/top-stories/police-investigate-officer-involved-shooting/

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ARealVermontar t1_ix522cj wrote

And the police shooting happened after he had already gotten himself involved in a shootout.

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ElisabetSobeckPhD t1_ix5eapr wrote

I think it happened outside of wheatfields, but certainly they weren't actually involved. wheatfields is a nicer restaurant and definitely is not open at 3am. there's only like 5 or 6 bars open at that time iirc.

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Vtfla t1_ix5ddar wrote

He’s lucky the local cops have terrible aim.

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IsraelZulu t1_ix5z19u wrote

10 hits out of "10 or 11" shots is actually pretty good aim compared to most officer-involved shooting stories.

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rosie666 t1_ix7qnn5 wrote

It's usually 10 shots fired, 1 grazed suspect, 3 in playground, 2 in senior center, 4 unaccounted for.

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johneerottn2dacore t1_ixbt0t7 wrote

Isn't it fun? let's turn it into a game where we all carry and shoot based on emotion and nobody does anything but post online about it. Wait, that's exactly what we're gonna keep doing. wow...

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whaletacochamp t1_ix5eaz0 wrote

Took 10 bullets or had 10 fired at him?

2

Advanced-Angle-1509 t1_ix5i6cf wrote

Y’all don’t even know the full story and are already making comments on how he shouldn’t have brought a gun to a bar? Wheat fields is a restaurant ya morons.

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K9Marz919 t1_ix5iob3 wrote

That was open until 3am. Sounds like a bar to me. How’s that boot taste?

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Unique-Public-8594 t1_ix5ks9x wrote

I think he was at an area bar but then the street fight broke out elsewhere/Wheatfields. 🤷🏼‍♀️

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Corey307 t1_ix8b874 wrote

It’s 3 AM, people are generally drinking and not dining out at 3 AM. People generally don’t get into a fight with strangers while dining at 3 AM. If the version of events is true the Deputy may have been defending himself. That said if you’re so drunk or high that you cannot follow police orders to drop a firearm you should not be carrying, likewise one should not carry when drinking or going to bars. The incident happened in front of a restaurant that was not open, the guy was out drinking got into some shit two men pulled guns and then when the cop showed up after gunfire was exchanged the shithead part time Rutland deputy got himself shot 10 times.

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Cobdain t1_ixpf4kw wrote

You ever been in a firefight? Ever fired a gun (pistol) with no hearing protection? Didn’t think so, sit the fuck down and stop theorizing when you know nothing of that fog that overtakes a situation where weapons of death are used against you and others in close proximity.

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Corey307 t1_ixpjmds wrote

Blah blah blah I’ve shot tens and tens of thousands of rounds over the years and yeah I know what it’s like to shoot a firearm without ear pro. My tinnitus is ringing as I type. Deputy Stupid was drunk and refused to drop his gun even when guns were drawn on him by cops. He was given multiple commands to drop his gun by police in uniform and he refused to so he got shot. And don’t you dare lecture me about firearms and gunfights when you limp wristed your Glock and caused it to malfunction repeatedly. Because that’s pretty much the only thing that will cause the Glock to malfunction unless you were feeding it reloads.

1

Cobdain t1_ixrgjgy wrote

Hahaha, well at least you aren’t a complete lost cause. He had his back to the police, so didn’t matter what they were wearing and do you hear them ever identify themselves? For the glock who tf knows why it did that. It was brand new and it was 15 degrees outside. Never did it again and I’ve never been limp in my life bud 😘

Happy cake do too

1

YPG-Got-Raqqa t1_ix9cyew wrote

> Y’all don’t even know the full story and are already making comments on how he shouldn’t have brought a gun to a bar? Wheat fields is a restaurant ya morons.

lmao yes dude you shouldn't bring a fucking tool designed to kill anyone you can point at into a bar OR restaurant. If he didn't do that he wouldn't have been shot and would still be a cop.

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theunbearablebowler t1_ix5n5tv wrote

lol acab

Edit: Sorry, let me be clearer: ACAB.

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yerkah t1_ix6idfy wrote

It's wild how easy it is to spot from a single comment Burlington residents, usually UVM students, who recently left their parents' house. I get that many are on this subreddit (hence the voting trends here), so I'm actually curious: is ACAB absolutism just an attempt to troll Blue Lives Matter types? Or genuine projection due to having only interacted with cops when speeding or having a party broken up?

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proscriptus t1_ixcmw72 wrote

50-something from Bennington County. Eat ALL the shit ACAB.

3

Real-Pierre-Delecto2 t1_ix7sw71 wrote

Essex Co mid 40's my demo says I should have a blue line flag on my car but nope ACAB!

0

RhodesTopGuy t1_ix5tjrd wrote

No father figure?

−47

edwardsamson t1_ix66rvb wrote

Nah just no father figure that beats his wife and kids regularly

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Cabin_Sandwich t1_ix7vbib wrote

Yeah right? I don’t like cops because my dad was one and was the worst trash humans you can imagine. Fuck him I’m going to piss on his grave if I ever get to Chicago again

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KrazyKaizr t1_ix6ro0v wrote

Wow, the first time in 26 years the Saratoga police shoot at someone... is another cop who thinks he's above the law.

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Harmacc t1_ixca3cr wrote

It’s about time we do something about cop on cop violence.

Innocent bystanders don’t deserve the risk of being around armed police.

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Cobdain t1_ixpeg3r wrote

Above the law? The guy was out with his lady and these guys jumped him while he was leaving. Where is the above the law part, I’d like to hear how getting shot ten or eleven times lands you in the “above the law” category

1

KrazyKaizr t1_ixqg7pt wrote

Did you not even watch the video? There are literally four cops yelling at him to put his gun down and he didn't, that's acting above the law.

1

Cobdain t1_ixrgs29 wrote

Do you hear them saying they are police? Did you see he had his back to them? Too many factors to make a judgement like you are doing bud

1

thisoneisnotasbad t1_ix5csjw wrote

At least he was not given special treatment by the NY cops and treated like every other citizen would be which is shot first, questions later.

Now let’s see if Rutland fires him for breaking NY law and pulling his gun and getting Into a firefight after he got beat up.

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IsraelZulu t1_ix5h56o wrote

For the responding department, the treatment he was given is actually quite rare. It had been well over two decades since an on-duty officer in that department had shot at anyone.

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TheTowerBard t1_ix65u6c wrote

"No one at the Rutland County Sheriff's Office returned a phone call or email from the Times Union."

Fucking cowards.

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yerkah t1_ix6j8jk wrote

Looking online, he seems to only be a part-time deputy. It's odd that's a thing for cops outside of small local departments. Tbh, I don't really get why county sheriff departments are a thing when VT doesn't have county governments. Officers for courts and government buildings outside of Montpelier can just be a branch of VSP.

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vtddy t1_ix6prmc wrote

Sheriff's in Vermont are basically a business. They charge every town that they patrol. It is why you see them escorting wide loads and sitting in construction zones.

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TheBugHouse t1_ix8izqo wrote

They're not basically a business they are a business. County Sherrif departments with no county government mea s no oversight. I posted above as well, Sherrif departments in VT are "for profit" and allow the elected Sherrif to pocket ket up to 5% of the contracts they secure.

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VWSpeedRacer t1_ix6ye2o wrote

You'd think that a cop would know to drop the weapon when three cops with a bead on you order you to drop the weapon....

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Smm333trustee t1_ix72t4s wrote

At 3:03am on Caroline Street it’s safe to assume mental acuity is absent from all involved.

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Cobdain t1_ix8fnym wrote

Interesting thing I’ve seen from the video, looks like the poor guy is getting ganged up on initially. He shows he’s armed and another man discharges his weapon at him. He fires back and injures the man who aggressed towards him. Police show up yelling get on the ground! But fail to let him know they are in fact police… so you just got shot at, and there’s people “yelling get on the ground” and that’s it. Is anyone surprised that he didn’t comply?

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TheBugHouse t1_ix8io9n wrote

The Sherrifs Departments in Vermont are an absolute joke. They're a "For Profit" entities yet have full law enforcement capabilities! State law allows the Sherrif (an elected position not requiring law enforcement experience) to pocket up to 5% of the contracts he secures. There is ZERO accountability. We have County Sherrifs departments and no county government!

A major reorganization of the system is required.

2

Vermonter623 t1_ix51qfg wrote

The next 50 cent right here.

1

19Vinny_The_Vet92 t1_ix53uan wrote

This guy was truly lacking common cents.

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Ambitious-Job-5448 t1_ix58nns wrote

Sense*

−36

19Vinny_The_Vet92 t1_ix5929e wrote

I stick to my spelling. Sorry you didn’t get it.

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Ambitious-Job-5448 t1_ix5991u wrote

I don’t believe you were saying he lacked common currency but I could be wrong

−33

19Vinny_The_Vet92 t1_ix59c0l wrote

It was in reference to the comment above mine.

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TheMobyDicks t1_ix80et4 wrote

Besides the private parties original incident, shootout involved SSPD and an off-duty Rutland deputy.

"This was the first time in 26 years Saratoga Police have discharged their weapon on the job."

Saratoga Springs population = 28,301

Rutland population = 15,851

Not sayin', just sayin'.

0

1DollarOr1Million t1_ix8gab8 wrote

What are you saying? What does the population of the two cities have to do with anything?

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ciscojoe t1_ix8kabw wrote

You have the population of Rutland City not Rutland County. This wasn’t a city cop but was a county deputy.

1

CXB1313 t1_ix78y0j wrote

Whoops

−1

artful_todger_502 t1_ix5nis9 wrote

A Rutland sheriff forced me to Proctor Citizens — the closest ATM to where he pulled me over — to give him 200.00 cash, the most I could pull out at that time, under threat of "going to lose the car for a long time."

So, I find it very hard to believe an agency that employs people with this caliber of ethics, professionalism and integrity could find themselves in an early morning, alcohol fueled shootout.

It's fake news or Saratoga PD provoked him. 🤡☝️

−14

Total_drama_z t1_ix64mxv wrote

Dang it you New Yorkers take land from us but now your talking our cops too what next our green mountain boys.

−14