Why?

Non-Muslims living in the Ottoman Empire had to pay extra taxes. Many people didn't want JFK to become president because he was Catholic. Women in the US couldn't vote until 1920. Several countries hold public elections, yet somehow the incumbent dynasty or leading political party always seems to be the one elected by a landslide. This type of shit happens all the time, unfortunately.

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Ja, the theory at the time was a devout Catholic would be mandated to obey any order of the Pope which would mean the United States would be under the control of a foreign entity.

Good ole American racism.

It's been about 200 years

Can you elaborate

And it’s still happening lol

Are you confusing Catholicism with Judaism? Title says Jews, now you're talking about the Pope. Or, are you just giving another example of religious oppression?

Sorry, I was responding to the backlash against JFK. It was because he was Catholic.

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Basically, if you weren't a WASP, they didn't want you holding any power.

They were responding to the comment about JFK…..

Sometimes religions don’t like each other.

Especially over 200 years ago

Elaborate on American racism in general or against Jewish folk?

In general is a little too broad and there is the entirety of human knowledge in your hand. When it comes to Jewish folk, think of it this way... During the run-up to WWII, most Americans thought was Hilter was doing was great. Anti-semitism was rampant across the western world.

The abolishionists believed Jewish people ran the Trans Atlantic slave trade so they banned them from office.

Thankfully the abolitionists corrected their crimes.

Ah, sorry, never mind then.

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What are you on about?

" During the run-up to WWII, most Americans thought was Hilter was doing was great"

You are full of shit you know that right?

No worries! We all learn something new every day, ja? Have a great weekend!

That might have been a pretext, but the real one was racism. I'd be interested to see where you learned that, though, and get more context. Do you have a link?

Which part are you confused about?

An atheist still can't.

You are kidding me, right? Like, are you not at all aware?

Here's a good one for you... Thomas Watson, head of IBM sold HItler the computational equipment he couldn't have organized the Third Reich without. Then licensed them to build punchcard factories in Germany instead of buying it from the US to get around trade sanctions. He was awarded a metal for "Service to the Reich". Jews were a scapegoat during the Great Depression to blue collar workers. In 1939, Miami turned away the USS St Louis filled with German Jewish refugees and they were returned to Germany and put in concentration camps. Throughout the 30's, it was common for KKK and other hate groups to attack Jewish people and businesses, painting swastikas on their doors. Henry Ford was a well-known antisemite who praised Hitler's "Mein Kampf" and would not hire jews. Even during WWII, the US maintained Jewish immigration restrictions which were designed to prevent what they felt were 'undesirables' from flooding US cities.

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None of this is at all hard to find. Simple Google search, my dude... Don't be that guy.

As an atheist, I have no problem swearing an oath on a bible. It means nothing to me. Might as well be saying, "so help me, Gargamel".

Lived in MD. This is what is taught in state history lessons.

It's presented as a religious beef more than racism. I guess it's to save face?

At the time the race and religion were relatively the same. It has been a relatively modern phenomenon where there are large numbers of people who were not born of the Jewish ancestry that convert to the Jewish religion.

1826? Hell that's downright progressive compared to my city, where it was all over the press in the mid 80s when the uppity golf club allowed a Japanese professor play there one time. And they still don't permit Jewish members as far as I'm aware.

Yes, google is easy. And you wold see "most" Americans did not support Hitler prior to WW2.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/question/how-did-the-united-states-government-and-american-people-respond-to-nazism

You don't have to swear on a bible, you can swear on anything.

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Actually, since the 1961 SCOTUS win against ... oh yes, Maryland, they can

All state, county, city, school board etc. laws barring atheists from public office are unconstitutional

Oh fuck yes. But that golf club was run and peopled by the same rich old white men that either payed local politicians or were the local politicians. Who was ever gonna police that situation?

I only learned about all that when I caddied there as a youngster. For an entire week. Fuck that haven for racist pricks.

Oh hon, this isn’t even the worst of it. We saw a deed in Baltimore last week that limited individuals living in a certain neighborhood from being non-white in fairly enumerated terms, and it wasn’t renounced by the neighborhood until…2014! The house sold in under a week for more than a million dollars. 😐

Well its alright, they're doing pretty well these days.

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/Kanye taking notes

>Lived in MD.

Born and raised.

>This is what is taught in state history lessons.

I went to public school grades 2-12 in a county with plenty of Confederate flags and the delusional beliefs to go with them, and I have never heard this. And especially being Jewish, I feel I would remember learning this.

Unfortunately, it's not. Country clubs are private clubs that are allowed to discriminate when it comes to choosing members. There are still country clubs that do not allow black people or Jews and others that do not allow women. It's less common than it used to be, but it still happens.

Being a Jew from Maryland, I do take pride in my home state's early acceptance of religious tolerance, even if it just started with accepting different sects/denominations of Christianity (unlike the other Colonies and early States, which didn't accept Catholics and sometimes other Christian groups).

Plenty of sins in our history, but a good amount of progress, too.

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Thats pretty early on in comparison to others. Some us politicans still didn't want to allow catholic judge to be in supreme court few years ago.

Depends on the state and the type/definition of private club. In Michigan it's been illegal since 1976 for most family clubs:

>(2) If a private club allows use of its facilities by 1 or more adults per membership, the use must be equally available to all adults entitled to use the facilities under the membership. All classes of membership shall be available without regard to race, color, gender, religion, marital status, or national origin. Memberships that permit use during restricted times may be allowed only if the restricted times apply to all adults using that membership.

Of course, that doesn't prevent discrimination, it just makes it more difficult. We had a friend in the 1980s that was the first Jew at a major country club here. Typically two existing members have to sign the membership request and they simply wouldn't do it for Jews. He was an auto exec, though, and the thought of losing all of the execs from his company changed a few minds.

I don't think that's right:

> Marcy Frost, an employment attorney at Moss & Barnett, says it all depends on the word "private".

> "If you are truly a private club, and not open to the public, the answer is generally, yes, you're allowed to discriminate," said Frost.

> Why?

> "On the theory we have a Constitutional right of freedom of association," she said.*

That's true, but there's currently no law against it federally and it does happen in some places.

A private club is like a private residence. I can refuse to let black people in my house. It's a disgusting and racist thing to do, but it's perfectly legal for me to do so.

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It’s not the swearing in. There are several US states that actually prohibit atheists from holding office. I live in Texas. Texas is one of them.

Now granted, it wouldn’t hold up today - hopefully. But there’s definitely still a law for it.

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Restaurants are open to the public. There are private dining clubs where only members are permitted to enter. Golf clubs do the same although some states have restrictions on this. I don't agree with the practice, but it is legal.

That's a really long time ago. Those fuckers were psychotic in the 1800's. That's actually really liberal. Jews are like 1 or 2 or 3% of the population now, I can't imagine the hell they experienced in the 1800's. Fuck that. But seriously, they're still persecuted (Hi Kanye you cunt), so 200 years ago must have been really rough. Other minorities couldn't do anything for quite a while after that. When did women get the right to vote? The fucking 13th amendment that ended slavery was 1866 or something.

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Cool, love MD.

The area I lived in was pretty diverse, we spent a lot of time learning about the Civil war and slavery, even took us out to Antietam.

Deed restrictions like that are pretty common. They're not legally enforceable, so it's usually not worth the bother of actually getting them removed.

>That's illegal af.

No it's not, pretend reddit lawyer.

The 1964 Civil Rights acts specifically exempts private clubs and private places, and only applies to public places open to the public.

Here, this should help.

Yeah my understanding was they’re rendered null by the fair housing act but it felt..off.. that someone in 2014 felt compelled to “address “ it with a cover letter

I'm from Rhode Island; we've got the oldest-standing synagogue in the United States, down in Newport.

>previously, the state's constitution required public officeholders to make "a declaration of a belief in the Christian religion."[

So it went from nobody but Christians could hold office, to only Christians and Jews could hold office. When could Muslims hold public office in Maryland?

Seems like Jews and Christians held a lot of privilege compared to other minorities.

But did you get to blow up the course in order to catch and kill a dancing gopher?

America is a country basically founded by extremist Christians, I’m very surprised jewish people could hold office as early as 1826

So one of the first places in the world to allow religious freedom, then?

> Non-Muslims living in the Ottoman Empire had to pay extra taxes.

IIRC, the military comprised of conscripted Muslims, and so the extra tax was essentially an alternative to national service.

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Well, that's what, like a little before 6:30 at night? That's not so bad.

I know that President Trump swore on the buhble

That fits along the concept that the federal govt was constrained by the Constitution/Bill of Rights but States could do whatever they wanted.

This country has been trying to glue/un-glue itself since it's founding.

Professional golfer Tom Watson quit the Kansas City Country Club in 1990 after it denied membership to Henry Bloch, one of the founders of H&R Block, who was Jewish. They offered a membership to Bloch a week later, and he joined. Watson didn’t rejoin until 1995.

Oh boy, wait until you hear about women and black people

Deed restrictions have been illegal since the fair housing act. In some areas, it's just hard to change the deed and so, it's just left on.

It is honestly kind of amazing how much progress has been made in the last 50-70 years and simultaneously depressing how long it took.

For like 99.999% of human history we have been an almost completely tribal bunch of murderous dickheads and many of us still are.

Technically atheists aren't allowed to hold public office today in some states because the constitution only protect against religious discrimination, a lack of religion doesn't fall into that category.

I don’t know if I find comments like these constructive. Addressing historical wrongs (which inform today’s society) requires understanding what happened. Responding to someone saying “something bad happened” with “well, something bad happened to all these other people” doesn’t do much to increase the specificity of our understanding of injustice

Those bans are all illegal and unenforceable, the Supreme Court struck them down a long time ago.

Isn't it fine to just say Jews in this situation or is it considered derogatory regardless of the context and tone?

This was part of the official reasoning. In practice, the tax was designed to be enough of a burden to incentivize conversion.

So were all the restrictions placed upon them: they couldn’t carry weapons, they couldn’t ride horses or camels, they couldn’t build new houses of worship, they couldn’t testify against Muslims in criminal cases, their houses couldn’t overlook Muslim ones, they couldn’t practice their religion in certain ways (no public religious processions, no ringing church bells or blowing the shofar, etc.)…the only way to stop being a second-class citizen was converting to Islam.

People often forget the Bill of Rights only applied to the federal government originally. States could and did have religious tests like this one for public office. Some had state religions. Some banned religions. Missouri banned Mormons from the state on pain of death.

Thankfully, the 14th Amendment led to the Incorporation Doctrine, which applies the Bill of Rights to state and local governments.

Bro. 200 years ago there was some institutional anti semitism? What a non story

This is only shocking if you're twelve and reading about the worlds violent and cruel history for the first time... You know slavery still existed at that time right? Get a brain.

IIRC Maryland is still one of them.

PA as well.

>Article 1, section 4: No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth

Just keeping within context that all groups have been persecuted or exploited at some point in time. And yes, it should stop. Just tired of modern society constantly being expected to answer for the mistakes of the past and it never seems to stop.

To be fair, I also hate New Yorkers.

I guess. I would be curious why you think that’s important context to keep this within?

The bill still required to swear a belief in "a future state of rewards and punishments," so didn't remove the religious test entirely.

The phrase "stirring up shit from the past" comes to mind.

Doubtful that racial and/or religious restrictions for holding public office will return. Probable that the US is going to allow private companies to fire minorities at will based upon “individual freedoms”. Within five years, private clubs will be able to buy out minority memberships and private neighborhoods will be permitted to exclude Jews or anyone else they choose. The 1964 Civil Rights Act is being undermined right this minute.

This is where the US is heading. The right to bigotry exceeds the rights of minorities. Disgusting, but there it is.

Hmm, that’s what I suspected. I don’t see that as compatible with also acknowledging it should stop.

If you agree historical wrongs are linked to modern society, it becomes are a legacy we need to acknowledge. Not to just feel guilty about, but because addressing then requires a specific understanding of their context. As you’ve acknowledged injustice happens to a bunch of groups, all in their own ways, so we can only address it by understanding specifics.

P.S. I hope my tone doesn’t seem off in anyway - this was just a conversation I’ve been hoping to have

I choose to live in the present. But I don't disagree with the concepts you've stated. I've just had enough reminders of things that happened years ago that I had literally nothing to do with. Most of these injustices have been corrected and are no longer an issue.

It’s not you having caused them, it’s whether or not it matters to you to resolve their consequences - and I see the consequences as related and real. Seems you agree their are consequences and they’re related to their history, I guess the disagreement is you feel the consequences are overblown.

What consequence do you feel I owe for something that happened in 1826? And how do you plan to extract that from me exactly?

I never said owe, and you bringing up extract seems unnecessarily hostile when I said it’s about whether or not it matters to you.

Now you said it did, so if that’s the case and you’re down to assist voluntarily, I think the relevance is that Jews face the highest per capita hate crime rate and tracing why this did not happen randomly but builds on a pattern of both state sponsored and non-state based discrimination is useful to understanding how we ended up in a place where Jews are focused on disproportionately. And this understanding is important to changing this.

That's no longer happening in modern US society. You're acting like something from 200 years ago is still happening today. Isolated incidents will always occur, but that doesn't mean Jews are being systematically or institutionally discriminated against, at least not more than any other group in various settings, even those that are referred to as "majority" don't receive fair treatment in many situations.

The founding fathers explicitly did NOT want the USA to be a Christian nation. Not saying there weren’t extremist Christians living here, of course, but I don’t really know what you’re on about.