Comments
Alternative-Flan2869 t1_ix8rzqc wrote
And school loan rates of the pre-reagan years were 6% for state loans, and 3% for national direct student loans, and a summer job could oay for at least one semester’s tuition. Also PA stopped supporting 75% of tuition for PASSHE to become almost the worst funded state system of higher education in the country.
borosuperfan t1_ix9xolb wrote
Thank you for bringing up the lack of state funding. My out of state friends can't believe how much Edinboro tuition cost me.
JethusChrissth t1_ix99127 wrote
I just turned 28 and can’t even think about starting a family. I JUST now make enough to afford the $1.5k a month one-bedroom rent in my area; and that’s cheap here. We are truly sad, lonely, and unfulfilled by life. No people who I knew and went to college with have kids yet—they’re all working the jobs they can and paying off their loans with little to no wiggle room for expanding their lives.
We’re so fucked.
Relax007 t1_ix9h9un wrote
I feel ya. I waited until I was at a point where we could afford to have a child and electricity/housing/student loans. By then, it was too late for us. It’s probably for the best. I’ll never be able to afford to put any money aside for a child’s future. I’ve paid off all of the money I borrowed for school and I still owe significantly more than I borrowed. I’ll likely pay on them until I’m dead. They’re more than my monthly mortgage and eat up 25% of my take home pay.
Vdjakkwkkkkek t1_ixc9nbu wrote
Maybe 28 year olds shouldn't be living alone in 1 bedroom apartments?
That's literally never been a thing, not sure why you feel entitled to it. It's wasteful.
johnnyblack15 t1_ixcicvf wrote
Can I get some of whatever it is you are smoking?
JethusChrissth t1_ixe5fjo wrote
Bro u okay?
BadRabiesJudger t1_ix9he2p wrote
The only conclusions i have come to for pro life are simple. They need cheap low income work forces and someone to fill the tithe basket. Millennials didn't want that so they are gonna force it out of em.
106473 t1_ix8sppd wrote
coughs blackrock
chrimack t1_ix8vr2z wrote
Yeah but Larry Fink has a huge hard-on for ESG investing so that makes up for it, right? Right?
NikD4866 t1_ix9lbg3 wrote
Many Millennials just don’t WANT kids. They’re used to their childless life.
I don’t think anyone ever is confident on the affordability factor. But many ARE certain on the fact that quality of life and difficulty to live are inversely proportional and it’s only going downhill. Millennials are also heavy into hookup culture, which isn’t great for child stability.
But I’m a millennial and I have 4 kids. My bank owns a crapshack in my name that I had to fix myself to get a certificate of occupancy for. Married since we were 18. it CAN be done, it’s just not as comfortable as previous generations had it and my margin is smaller and I have to be careful. But if I had to compare my life to previous generations financially I’d drive myself into an early grave.
But my kids don’t know that, to them it’s just life as always and will Continue to be. It’s like They’ve been born in captivity lol - it’s all they’ll ever know, and they’ll find their own loopholes to exploit in the name of success, just like the rest of us do.
lehigh_larry t1_ix90m0r wrote
What banks are you referring to in that last part?
Relax007 t1_ix94ktp wrote
JP Morgan:
I swear I saw an article about Wells Fargo doing this, but I can’t find it anywhere so maybe I was mistaken.
Lloyds (largest lending institution in the UK:
Mainly corporations are doing this (as someone noted, Blackrock)
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/08/02/business/family-homes-wall-street/index.html
There are better sources, but I’m a little time crunched. I’ll come back and edit if I have time, but a Google search turns up lots of articles about that problem from different perspectives/areas.
drxdrg08 t1_ixax3w4 wrote
> So basically, millennials couldn’t afford kids.
People had more kids during WWII in Europe. It's not that they can't afford. They are just brainwashed to think it's not important.
Relax007 t1_ixcjdal wrote
You are omitting the fact that reliable birth control methods were not widely known, accepted, or available. Birth control wasn’t even legal and the pill hadn’t been invented. Of course more children were born before women were able to prevent pregnancy.
Unable-Musician-1647 t1_ix84ira wrote
I'm already seeing a bunch of the housing stock that was converted to student rentals getting turned into Section 8 housing. College towns will be the new mill towns.
tmaenadw t1_ix83l83 wrote
There is one aspect they don’t mention here, and that is international students. That enrollment has been dropping precariously with the pandemic and the explosion of gun violence in this country. We are not seen as a safe place to send your kids.
In recent years we have seen “expertise” come under attack. While it’s true that there is limited need for PhD candidates in literature and women’s studies, if these disappear, we will be the poorer for it. I say this as a STEM major (BS in Applied Mathematics), married to a research physician, with a daughter who is currently in PA working on her MD/PhD. Our other child is trying to get into the trades, and is currently working one of the referenced warehouse jobs. While it is true that colleges expanded beyond what they should have, a future driven by the enrollment of athletes in majors motivated only by potential salaries will be a sad place. I hope that Pennsylvanians will find a way to keep higher education access for those who want it, and not just those with deep pockets.
[deleted] t1_ix84n9m wrote
on point!
we are NOT seen as a safe place, plus we are expensive and colleges are no longer able to give as much aid to foreign students. they have been dependent on foreign students for at least a decade and them rethinking coming here is a huge issue.
I found the Vox article very interesting and liked how they did touch on how Olympic sports (like field hockey) are being used in enrollment management. Schools like Ship, York - there are TONS here in Pennsy - are absolutely using kids' desires to continue to play niche sports as a hook for enrollment. Whether or not this fits their mission I'm unsure of. I don't think it's necessarily bad, and probably helps young people to keep on track with their classes actually (since they can't party too much during their sport season).
Pennsylvania does have a problem. We just have too many schools here. A lot of them are lovely and I will be sad to see them go. But there's no way they can ALL stay in business, I don't think.
Calan_adan t1_ix8vrac wrote
Often those foreign students are full pay, which subsidizes the financial aid available for other students. Without those full-pay students, less financial aid is available.
wagsman t1_ix8yu53 wrote
I think the biggest factor in international students was Trump's immigration policy. He gutted the amount of Visas issued.
tmaenadw t1_ix8zqt9 wrote
Yes, and they are not choosing to come here because they won’t be able to get citizenship and stay.
This is bad news for a lot of things, but a lot of rural medicine is staffed by physicians who came here as students on visas.
timewellwasted5 t1_ix8tb8s wrote
>the explosion of gun violence in this country.
Do you have a source citing this as the reason for declining international enrollment, or are you just speculating?
tmaenadw t1_ix8z9ej wrote
Not speculating, I have read it in several articles. This one mentions it, along with the fact that our strict immigration requirements are driving students elsewhere.
We do have more gun violence than a lot of other countries, that’s just a fact, and when sending your kid away from home for school, impressions count as much as anything. (We are in the top 10 countries for gun deaths). America loves it’s guns, they are likely not going anywhere, and as a country we seem to idolize them above almost everything else.
timewellwasted5 t1_ix91u2h wrote
>We do have more gun violence than a lot of other countries, that’s just a fact,
I never refuted that. This was just the first I had heard of losing international students specifically due to gun violence.
tmaenadw t1_ix97uc6 wrote
I don’t think it’s the only factor, but combined with some others I do think it has an effect.
Beef5030 t1_ixbth8d wrote
Met my wife in the dorms, she was an international student. From my experiences and conversations the gun issue is a big one.
Immigration is also broken, we abandoned our K-1 (I-129F) since the processing times have only gotten longer. When we applied it was 10 months, now it's 15, if we kept our petition it would likely be 2 years till we could legally get married.
Every Immigration form is a depressing thread after another about people being separated for indefinite amounts of time, loss of jobs, missing funerals and life events. It's soul crushing to say the least. Pandemic and that evil orange bastards admin left LONG lasting impacts that will be felt for years. Loss of talent is an understatement, I'm a engineer and I left a cirital role due to this.
tmaenadw t1_ixg4oi7 wrote
I’m sorry it’s so difficult. It is long past time we should have fixed our immigration rules.
LowNo5584 t1_ixztz74 wrote
It's difficult for a reason. We're not going to let everyone come here. It's a merit based system. Otherwise this country's finite resources would completely implode.
[deleted] t1_ix9u8gx wrote
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dancingprotein t1_ix9lk50 wrote
International students want to come here, but the h1b visa is such a headache that many are choosing to go elsewhere. If this is fixed most international students will still come here, adjusting to Europe is much harder for alot of (brown) immigrants.
Why would a student come here if there is no guarantee that they can stay beyond the 2-3 years that they are entitled to under OPT (part of the F-1 student visa)
heili t1_ixausmc wrote
H-1B isn't a student visa, it's a specialty occupation visa.
Are you referring to F-1 OPT students?
dancingprotein t1_ixaxw5z wrote
Most students who come here for a masters expects to work here for a while. With a student visa like an F-1 you can only work for a couple years after you graduate so they apply for a H1b via their employer. So what I mean is the H1b is incredibly difficult due to the lottery system and many people who actually deserve to be here basically have to pack up and leave after setting up their life here. This is a huge factor why international students are looking elsewhere
Dredly t1_ix8ih9n wrote
Once again, the boomer generation was handed one of the greatest gifts ever by the greatest generation, nearly free higher education for anyone that wanted it, and in response, they fucked it up out of pure greed and selfishness, and then blame another generation for the shit they fucked up.
​
By far the WORST GENERATION IN HISTORY.
​
Thanks boomers, now please all move to Florida and stay there so you can turn that state as red as you fucking want, and let the rest of us try to fix your messes.
crispydukes t1_ix921mx wrote
Let's get some perspective here. Boomers went to college in the mid 60's to mid 80's. Boomers were not at the seat of power until the late 80s to today.
Plenty of "greatest" and "silent" generation folks are to blame.
OccasionallyImmortal t1_ix9deqt wrote
My parents and their siblings are boomers. Absolutely zero of them (in my family) went to college while nearly every one of their children did. For their generation, the only people that went to college were wealthy. Being able to send their children to college was the best gift they could offer them.
The best gift that the Boomer's had was the ability to start a family with only a high school diploma.
worstatit t1_ix8pgri wrote
Er, most boomers benefitted from living wage jobs that didn't require a degree, and didn't get one. Just because you hate your parents doesn't mean they are at fault.
Dredly t1_ix8wfx1 wrote
Who do you think was in charge of the insane increase in everything college cost wise that magically started happening as soon as the Boomer generation took over?
​
Tuition stayed pretty much fully aligned with inflation until the early 90's... which is exactly when boomers moved into roles of authority.
​
or are you implying its purely coincidence that literally the decade where they started hitting 50 education inflation went through the roof?
worstatit t1_ix8y4gh wrote
Seems to me those in charge would have been well over 50, as they are today. Possibly tuition went up because of less demand on overbuilt infrastructure?
Manowaffle t1_ix9bjgc wrote
Politicians catered to the largest voter base at the time, the Boomers.
okinteraction4909 t1_ix9di4i wrote
And they hold their heads so high and proud and full of judgement. They fucked up a country really badly and are proud of themselves for it. They can’t understand why you can’t buy a house when you had a college education even if you spell it out for them and sit them down and show them the numbers. I sat down and drew out for my dad what his salary in 1975 as a new loan officer would translate to today and showed him what a loan officer actually makes today. His response was “then they should get a different higher paying job.”
Manowaffle t1_ix9idzc wrote
It is pretty wild. An entire generation struggling to get by and the elders just shrug and tell them to try harder.
worstatit t1_ix9cz5k wrote
And who else? Donors, then voters, get the policy attention, with little left for anyone else. Can't see why boomers would push college tuition up when they were paying for their own kids to go, though.
Manowaffle t1_ix9ht29 wrote
Not on purpose, but a side effect of the privatize everything obsession. Defunding public education, public universities, driving people out of the teaching profession, etc. And then insisting that everyone needed to go to college.
Unique-Public-8594 t1_ix81z7g wrote
Save You the Click Summary:
Enrollment is about to drop because of declining birth rates about 18 years ago.
~~
My take: overly dramatic title. Sounds like it will just get much easier to get in that’s all…
IamSauerKraut t1_ix89vdn wrote
If it causes a decline in tuition costs and the disappearance of predatory loan schemes then it is not a bad thing.
Metaheavymetal t1_ix8ctdh wrote
>decline in tuition costs
Ahahhahaa, oh man, hahahaha
If the application rate drops by 20% expect the tuition rate to increase by 30% the next year, if you are lucky.
ETA: Also, once the bubble really bursts, expect a coupe trillion dollara of tax payer money going to bail out the ivy league schools because Harvard is too big to fail. But at the same time, do not expect your tax dollars to lay for your own tuition, thats socialism.
axeville t1_ix8fz22 wrote
Harvard endowment is the size of a Latin American country gnp they don't need tuition to keep the lights on. But others are a fraction of that size and are dependent heavily on parents cash flow.
IamSauerKraut t1_ix8hmag wrote
I'm more worried about the PSSHE schools. Yanno, the places the regular kids go to.
Unique-Public-8594 t1_ix8ells wrote
Applications might decrease. That just means they would accept (for example) 25% of applicants instead of 5%. Enrollment would stay the same.
Tina_Las_Vegas t1_ix9hohv wrote
This will never impact an Ivy League school. They all have MASSIVE endowments and will continue to because their wealthy Alumni base will continue to donate and foot the bill. This is a major issue for small state schools though because their alumni don’t have the extra cash to donate back.
ktappe t1_ix8fx9c wrote
Wrong take. Schools are going to go out of business.
kworkbos t1_ix8jsg1 wrote
they'll just be bought up by other schools; turned into dorms or research facilities.
thisonelife83 t1_ixay3eg wrote
Sometimes they (small colleges) are bought to raid the endowment funds. There was a WSJ article about this a few months ago. One college targeted specific criteria to purchase as a satellite campus. They found one in CA with a decent endowment and land worth $100M. They basically paid nothing for the college. Due to declining enrollment the college didn’t see a way forward.
kworkbos t1_ixczi6u wrote
ugh, you're absolutely right. Boston University bought (edit: merged) a small college recently; I just looked them up and now B.U. is 'managing' the $46 million endowment that the former (Wheelock) had. Bastards!
Alternative-Flan2869 t1_ix8r84i wrote
News flash - it has been happening as a slow death for decades. PASSHE schools start out every new year talking to faculty about exactly the same thing but never mention the elephant in the room - PSU’s two dozen branch campuses that suck up more students who want a big name on their degree, willing to go to a tiny campus, paying more money, that is not close to the big PS university experience. Republicans love that this is crushing PASSHE and the unions that PSU, Pitt, and Temple don’t have.
GraggIeSimpson t1_ix9ta3f wrote
PASSHE’s chancellor is an assclown. The consolidation debacle is just the cherry on top of how bad he’s fucked PASSHE up during his tenure. He loves giving talks and writing op-eds about how Pennsylvania needs more college graduates to keep the state’s economy going, but earlier this year he got caught on a hot mic screaming at WCU students about how he’s doing nothing to advocate for free college or student loan forgiveness. Between Dan greenstein and PSU, PASSHE is seriously doomed.
Alternative-Flan2869 t1_ixbmc51 wrote
100% sad but true.
[deleted] t1_ix991nl wrote
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Hib3rnian t1_ix88kqe wrote
A. Brick and mortar college educations are too expensive for any family with an income at or below $100k. The cost outweighs the risk in many cases. This puts any middle class and below demographic, on the path to either trades work (nothing wrong with it) or online degrees.
B. Online degrees are more efficient, more flexible, cost effective and as good if not better from a gained knowledge standpoint. And you are into the workforce faster with less financial burdens.
C. It's 2022, foreign students can remotely attend classes in the US from the comfort and safety of their own homes in whatever country they are from, saving the cost of travel, housing, etc along with having the peace of mind that they won't be affected by the increasing violence in the US.
The brick and mortar college mentality is antiquated and in many instances obsolete (hands on learning aside). Those that are prestigious will maintain their numbers as mentioned but those not in that upper realm will need to adjust to a more cost effective, efficient model or simply not survive.
It's the same "dinosaur lifecycle" we see with most everything when it comes to technological advancements; adapt or die.
[deleted] t1_ix8fz2e wrote
As a female, let me tell you there are STILL girls who go for the "connections." Online is just not going to work for that. It will be very interesting to see how colleges try to get males to apply for in-person. Right now I'm seeing young men really lose interest in college (the normal way) very quickly. They just are not motivated and who can blame them? It's like walking on thin ice for normal guys at college now.
BureaucraticHotboi t1_ix8lnih wrote
Ur subtext is pretty crazy here. If you think most men are worried about rape allegations…I’d be concerned about the men you know.
[deleted] t1_ix8ma0h wrote
Wow - I did not say that!
But it's interesting that you immediately "went there."
Students in general are very risk-averse now in a way they didn't have to be before.
Conformity is thru the roof in that age group, in a way it never was before.
College - for both sexes - is walking on eggshells.
justasque t1_ix8r88y wrote
Could you explain the risks you are referring to? Lots of things come to mind, but none of them seem college-specific to me.
Itslehooksboyo t1_ix8jzyi wrote
Wdym? I graduated last year and I'm not really sure what you mean by the "walking on thin ice" part
PrincessGwyn t1_ix8r56v wrote
Oh well. Lower tuition costs. People don’t see the value anymore because it doesn’t always result in big paychecks to pay off those big loans
Another-random-acct t1_ixa2cyq wrote
Isn’t it more likely to raise tuition costs? Since they’ll need more students to maintain their current revenue.
PrincessGwyn t1_ixa378n wrote
Pay the people at the top less. It’s becoming a scam. How was it cheaper before? The cost is because of greed
Another-random-acct t1_ixa3uzd wrote
Oh I know it’s ridiculous. Huge salaries. Never ending capital projects that are not really needed.
I don’t feel like the degrees even worth as much these days. Less jobs require degrees and more people have them than a few decades ago. So it has less real world value but a drastically higher cost.
PrincessGwyn t1_ixa4g3x wrote
It’s not worth it when you have to start from the bottom anyway
Manowaffle t1_ix9bovd wrote
Oh no, now colleges might have to start providing better education instead of fancier sports stadiums!
SpooceJam t1_ix9qox2 wrote
Fancy sports stadiums bring in a ton of money to colleges. They make profit
Manowaffle t1_ixbjit9 wrote
College sports bring in money to colleges in the same way that junk mail brings in money to the Post Office. Revenue increases, but your core mission suffers.
LowNo5584 t1_ix90t28 wrote
Perhaps it might, just might, be the fact that more are enrolling in trade schools rather than obtain a degree that may, or may not, end in a high paying gig.
svenEsven t1_ixa208r wrote
Is this true? Last I saw trade schools were still doing heavily in enrollment.
LowNo5584 t1_ixa5umf wrote
I said more are enrolling in trade schools than traditional college.
svenEsven t1_ixaenyf wrote
That's even wilder to me, glad to hear it. Source would be nice though
LowNo5584 t1_ixzu51j wrote
"A report released by the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center shows nationwide enrollment at two-year institutions in construction trades increased this spring over last by 19.3%. Over that same time period, four-year college enrollment dropped by 4.7%."
LowNo5584 t1_ixagjyu wrote
"A report released by the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center shows nationwide enrollment at two-year institutions in construction trades increased this spring over last by 19.3%. Over that same time period, four-year college enrollment dropped by 4.7%."
PermissionToConnect t1_ixal33y wrote
Construction...
LowNo5584 t1_ixalzyq wrote
One word? What about construction?
Divinggumby t1_ixam4he wrote
Good. Maybe the trades that support the white collar jobs will be filled since many blue collar jobs have been unfulfilled for years.
flyingincybertubes t1_ixc2281 wrote
Smaller class sizes sounds like a benefit for students
Illustrious_Air_1438 t1_ix9cbb4 wrote
Is this really a bad thing? Most kids don't really care about education and I don't see why we should force them to go to college for the sake of getting a job that most likely could have been done without a college degree.
PermissionToConnect t1_ixad08z wrote
I think they confused Penn State with UPenn, because Penn State is certainly not "an elite college and research university"
Relax007 t1_ix8ghrl wrote
So basically, millennials couldn’t afford kids. The resulting smaller generation that watched their older relatives get absolutely wrecked by student loans aren’t lining up to take the same lifetime vow of poverty. Shocking.
Edited to add, the fact that we have not fixed even one of the factors that made millennials have less kids will probably also contribute. If anything, it’s gotten worse since we’re now allowing the same banks that crashed the economy to buy up all of the housing and rent it back to us.