Why does Amtrack service not extend to State College?

Submitted by vortical42 t3_10w5vn8 in Pennsylvania

Looking at a map of Amtrack routes in the state today and something stuck out to me. The east-west route from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia comes all the way north to Tyrone before heading south to Harrisburg. They could have easily extended a branch another 20 miles and connected State College, a dense and rapidly growing urban area, to Pittsburgh and Harrisburg.

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Was there every any serious discussion of doing this, either when Amtrack was established or later? If so, what prevented it from happening?

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glynnefearn t1_j7l6ush wrote

Amtrak did not lay down its own line. Amtrak operates on existing trackage, primarily Norfolk Southern and CSX. There may not be existing lines to that location.

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ConcreteThinking t1_j7lbcj7 wrote

You are correct. The trains from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh follow the Keystone Corridor. Trackage was originally laid down by a number of railroads including the Philadelphia and Columbia Railroad, the Harrisburg, Portsmouth, Mount Joy and Lancaster Railroad, and others. Then through acquisition it became the Pennsylvania Railroad main line. Then Penn Central, then Conrail, then CSX and Norfolk Southern through various sales, mergers, and breakups. There is freight track running north from Tyrone through Port Matilda which is on the other side of a mountain from State College. Amtrak I guess figured it was not profitable to run a train there so Tyrone to State College is served by and Amtrak Bus line instead.

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ktappe t1_j7ofusj wrote

The years I spent at Penn State never included hearing a train whistle up there. I’m going with there being no tracks.

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ConcreteThinking t1_j7p9bf1 wrote

The Nittany and Bald Eagle Railroad still operates in the area. They are part of the North Shore Railroad System. The closest they ever get to Penn State is probably their line along Logan Run out past the Nittany Mall. Not surprising you never heard them over the sound of you turning pages and studying hard.

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ididacannonball t1_j7otl98 wrote

Yup. And you notice the change of speed at Harrisburg pretty distinctly.

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vortical42 OP t1_j7l8xci wrote

There is track there so I don't think that was the issue.

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upghr5187 t1_j7lbh85 wrote

It is the issue. The only tracks that reach state college is a spur line that comes from the north through Bellefonte. There’s no tracks connecting State College to Lewistown where the existing Amtrak line is. They would need to reroute through Williamsport to connect State College and Harrisburg without laying new track.

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Pink_Slyvie t1_j7mx2t4 wrote

>They would need to reroute through Williamsport to connect State College and Harrisburg without laying new track.

Just saying, this would be amazing. The bus services in these areas suck. I went to college up there, and its so hard to get around without a car.

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SendAstronomy t1_j7nvki6 wrote

But it would suck majorly for people that want to get to Harrisburg, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, or anywhere south.

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Pink_Slyvie t1_j7o1q7d wrote

It looks like they could do a line going from Harrisburg to Buffalo, that would be amazing. Looks like it's Norfolk Southern.

I'm of the opinion the gov't needs to take over the entire nation's rail system and really push electric rail, but that aint going to happen.

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wheresaldopa t1_j7n58nz wrote

Either that, or send the trains to Tyrone and connect to Harrisburg that way. Probably easier. That said, the spur line is ill-maintained jointed rail speed limited to 10-15 mph, as frequently tends to be the case with short line railroads all across the country. Amtrak service would demand significant upgrades, and the spur line doesn't even get close to downtown anyway.

I do think there would be some demand for train service to State College, if the number of Penn State students I've seen getting off the Amtrak in Tyrone and carpooling back to campus is anything to go by.

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SendAstronomy t1_j7nw5yj wrote

Connecting either to Tyrone or Lewistown would be great. Though the Amtrak service is already pretty thin. It would be tough to get the money to do this.

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Merker6 t1_j7ljgst wrote

Railroad tracks don’t work like roads. They were almost entirely built and operated privately by companies until the 1970s when passenger rail collapsed and the federal government bought it at deep discount and gradually sold off a great deal of what was left. In fact, most of the rail amtrak uses is not owned by Amtrak, it’s leased from companies like CSX and Norfolk Southern.

Amtrak can’t simply use it because its there, and passenger trains have plenty of their own requirements due to differing safety standards. It’s unlikely that using these tracks is feasible.

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webauteur t1_j7m287q wrote

Trains are an interesting example of early technology and investment hype. I did not realize this until I read a history of financial bubbles. People used to be really excited about trains so they built way more rail lines than could be justified. There was some serious over-investment. It was comparable to Silicon Valley mania today.

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cashonlyplz t1_j7luq35 wrote

Oh, baby, you're in the right state if you like trains and train history.

As others have said, the rails are not nationalized--Amtrak, unfortunately, only exists in its present form because of the freight rail industry. ~70% of Amtrak service runs on industrial rail.

If you believe it should be different, as many train nerds like myself do, we must bother our elected officials to no end, regardless of party.

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unenlightenedgoblin t1_j7lbyr2 wrote

A few things:

  • Those tracks (Pennsylvania RR) were built before dynamite had been invented, so blasting through inconveniently-located mountains (as they did for the Turnpike and I-80) wasn’t feasible. Since trains can’t operate on steep grades, this has resulted in rather indirect paths. The mountains decided where the tracks went as much as the planners did.
  • State College didn’t formally exist at the time said tracks were built. State College didn’t have any appreciable population until the 1960s, by which point cars and buses were both widely available and promoted by the government.
  • The tracks that pass through the State College area continue to Williamsport before you can continue south again. The only through route that would make sense there would be Pittsburgh-Scranton, which wouldn’t have much travel demand (though it could continue to NYC). Any route to Philly would most likely have to double-back, adding travel time and operational cost.
  • Cars. We massively subsidize driving throughout the US, so often rail is not competitive on price. As far as I’m aware none of the roads around there have tolls.
  • Buses. It’s much cheaper and less complex to run buses.

I would love to see it happen, but especially connecting to Philly would be challenging unless they laid new track (very difficult given property rights, lack of public support, cost, engineering, etc)

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sintactacle t1_j7m7tdz wrote

>Buses. It’s much cheaper and less complex to run buses.

And this is exactly what Amtrak does via thruway connecting services when a demand is there but laying new rail lines is not feasible. e.g. the State of Maine.

Also when I travel to Philadelphia from Central PA, it's always by Amtrak because it's about the same cost as tolls/fuel/parking but there is absolutely no stress involved that comes with driving to Center City. The train is usually at 10 to 20 percent capacity with most passengers hopping on closer to Philadelphia. You sometimes feel as if you are the only one in the train car on the lucky days.

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unenlightenedgoblin t1_j7mcv2c wrote

I can’t seem to find it, but saw a chart recently showing that while driving, rail, and flying have all recovered to pre-pandemic levels, intercity bus ridership has shown little recovery. I don’t have a great explanation for why, other than anecdotally some of the routes that used to serve Pittsburgh were canceled and never restored, wouldn’t be surprised if that’s also happened elsewhere.

When I lived in Germany, it was possible to get nearly anywhere in the country using some combination of public transport, even tiny dorfs (villages). I wish we had that same lifeline throughout our Commonwealth.

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shanafme t1_j7m67oy wrote

Nailed on the head. The mainline from Philly to Pittsburgh has a fascinating history and most of it happened well before SC became a “thing”.

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bonzoboy2000 t1_j7n562c wrote

I recall on the West Side of campus was a bar called “Train Station.” When I was there, it was just a bus depot. But I thought trains did go to SC at one point.

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IamSauerKraut t1_j7nj3qa wrote

That bar on College Ave was owned by a guy who loved trains. Not near any old station.

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IamSauerKraut t1_j7nif4y wrote

Yeah, Seven Mountains is a bitch to get thru. There is an old rail line that extends just past the Standard Steel Plant in Yeagertown off 322 north of Lewistown. Not sure if trains go that far up but I have seen them behind the crack donald's in Lewistown. Not surprised the line stops there. Gets gnarly thereafter.

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[deleted] t1_j7n1f86 wrote

[deleted]

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wheresaldopa t1_j7n7ibf wrote

Not to Philly, but to Pittsburgh, yes. I'll explain:

The Pennsylvanian is the Amtrak train that runs between the two cities, originating in New York and terminating in Pittsburgh. It runs entirely on Amtrak-owned and operated rail from New York to Harrisburg, initially via the Northeast Corridor to Philadelphia, then to Harrisburg via the Keystone Corridor. These two sections are some of the only electrified rail lines in the entire country. From Harrisburg, the Pennsylvanian switches over to Norfolk Southern's Pittsburgh Line, which is the line that runs through Horseshoe Curve. It runs through twice a day, once eastbound in the mid to late morning and once westbound in the late afternoon.

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APS-Membership t1_j7l7nqn wrote

Probably not a big freight destination - Amtrak (no c) mostly runs on freight lines.

This is a slightly different answer than the other one posted - note that there probably exists a rail connection to State College (as most towns of a moderate size in PA had a rail station), but the tracks are not being maintained any longer.

edit:

PSU had (limited) rail service until 1964. (regular service until 1945, special service after)

Library of Congress map of PA railroads.

Place to complain about what was stolen from us.

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cyvaquero t1_j7ljra9 wrote

There used to be a rail line that ran from Lock Haven through the south side of Nittany Valley up to Bellefonte. One of the stops was at the family sawmill behind the Walker Fire Hall.

You can still see remnants of the old bed on Google Maps satellite view - https://goo.gl/maps/XCXUACpwUc8WPKgy8

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skrilledcheese t1_j7lcblb wrote

Plus Scotia, the current ghost town/shooting range, had a rail stop too up until the 40s/50s.

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1989throwa t1_j7lgolo wrote

Okay, so I will be referring to this map

Surprisingly, Norfolk Southern does NOT own the rails connecting Tyrone to State College.

Instead, there appears to be one company, one Municipal Authority, and one non-profit organization we would need to work with to make this a reality.

First, there is the Nittany & Bald Eagle Railroad which is an arm of The North Shore Railroad Company & Affiliates (NSRC)

Secondly, there is the Susquehanna Economic Development Association -Council of Governments Joint Rail Authority (SEDA-COG JRA) that appears to own the tracks.

Finally, there is the Bellefonte Historical Railroad Society

Now: it would take some doing, but SEDA-COG is an association where the board of directors are elected officials. Meaning, the rails are publicly owned and it looks like the NSRC has a close association with SEDA-COG (I will do some poking around to get more information about that.) But if SEDA owns the tracks, they are ultimately owned by residents meaning folks who live in the area can make requests.

Also, while we are thinking about it, we could even connect Lock Haven to the State College area as well as Tyrone. Even if we just start with game day, that could be helpful (this would need to cooperate with CATA, but that shouldn't be impossible)

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vortical42 OP t1_j7lgzl7 wrote

The dream would be a line all the way up the Susquehanna valley to Scranton.

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1989throwa t1_j7li6sb wrote

Agreed. The main challenge there would be needing to work with Norfolk Southern since they own lines outside of the North Shore Railroad Company & Affiliates' control between the Susquehanna Valley and Scranton 😕

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[deleted] t1_j7m7jtv wrote

We need a stop in york county too

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1989throwa t1_j7nsuiu wrote

Ideally we would have passenger rail to all major population centers, and it just takes a deliberate choice.

PA has roughly the same population density as Portugal which has 3622 km of rail while PA has 9516km of rail (NOT including SEPTA or PAAC commuter rail systems). This is over 2.5 times more rail.

PA has 13 million residents (or so) which places us between the Netherlands and Belgium which, combined, have less rail than PA.

PA and the nation of England are practically the same size in area, and England had 11,672 km in 2020. England has some of the most heavily used rail system in the world, and they only have a bit over 2000 more km of rail line than we do.

The reason we do not have enough passenger rail in PA is by design and it was a choice. We could have a decent passenger rail system

We could have a line from Harrisburg to York to Hanover to Gettysburg. Or from York to Baltimore.

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[deleted] t1_j7nuvtj wrote

I imagine a line from north to south. State college, harrisburg, york, and it goes into maryland to baltimore.

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Allemaengel t1_j7pu069 wrote

And then the Scranton-Poconos-NYC line being proposed.

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[deleted] t1_j7l7geq wrote

It would be a great idea. Tyrone is a good example of the multiple stops on that rail line that are small towns with no need for Amtrak. It costs almost $30 to ride one-way from Tyrone to Harrisburg, this makes it much more expensive than the cost of gas to drive the distance. I live in Huntingdon county and have to go to Harrisburg twice a week for work, I thought about using Amtrak instead of driving but the ticket prices are three times what I would use in gas .

But there isn't much reason to need to take Amtrak to Tyrone, Altoona, or Huntingdon. State college would be a great idea. It could really help with PSU sports traffic. Sometimes I need to go to State college for the stores, but I would definitely think twice about going over there on a big sports weekend due to the traffic. I think a lot of this rail line was designed back when they were still thinking about thriving industries in these towns. Everywhere else in the region is a dying town that is losing population. State college and centre county are the main places in the region that are seeing growth.

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Travis123083 t1_j7ldpfb wrote

There's plenty of need for a stop in Altoona. The transportation terminal is constantly busy. Tyrone on the other hand is not nor is Huntington. If they had a daily commuter from Altoona to State College would be ideal. A lot of people commute to SC for work.

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rflu t1_j7nblox wrote

Tyrone essentially exists as the PSU stop, though arguably Lewistown is just as close. Altoona gets a good amount of passengers though, one of the highest used stations between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh.

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justuravgjoe762 t1_j7l7n5o wrote

From Tyrone it's the Bald Eagle railroad up to Julian, which continues up in a northeasterly direction. There isn't a good spot to cross the mountain with a rail line till Bellefonte.

Also as the previous poster said , Norfolk Southern owns the line, Amtrak just gets a chance to use it. That's why freight gets priority over people and there is only 1 passenger train a day. Compare that with easy of Harrisburg where Amtrak owns the line and there is a commuter train into Harrisburg and out of Harrisburg every day.

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ktxhopem3276 t1_j7lhdb8 wrote

There is some history behind Amtrak. Passenger rail used to be privately owned and operated but after wwii and the buildout of interstate highways, the government took over the remains of failing routes in 1971 to create Amtrak. Few new routes have been created since then. A short out and back route from Tyrone would be logistically difficult and expensive to operate. Recently, Joe Biden, a huge advocate for trains, allocated $100 billion for expansions but that doesn’t include many long routes. Instead it focuses on creating short commuter routes to large cities. This may build support for future longer routes but those are likely at least a couple decades in the future. The nyc to Scranton route could be the beginnings of a nyc Scranton williamsport state college Pittsburgh route in the distant future. Also the congressman from that area was chair of the transportation committee and interstate 99 was his life long pet project

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SBRH33 t1_j7m392h wrote

Busses handle the difference.

Its cheap and efficient work around of the terrain issue.

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saketaco t1_j7m902e wrote

You can Uber to Lewistown and pickup Amtrak there.

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rflu t1_j7nbxf9 wrote

I'm actually surprised Penn state doesn't offer bus shuttle service to/from either Lewistown or Tyrone for the Pennsylvanian. I feel like this would be frequently used, at least during the weekends.

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NastyBass28 t1_j7nkggk wrote

In a perfect world, how great would it be to be able to go from Philly or Pittsburgh to a Penn State football game, pulling right up near the stadium.

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gggg500 t1_j7v9m4v wrote

State College, until the mid 1950’s, was a podunk, rural, nothingburger of a town. It was akin to what Mansfield, PA is today. It was a small farming crossroads that had a small land grant university which was mostly based on agricultural studies. My grandfather was born in 1939 and grew up in Pine Grove Mills and later State College, and he had said that Lock Haven was a much bigger city and a much bigger deal than State College was at the time, back then. State College was small.

Then, in 1953 Penn State College became Penn State University. PSU also had a University president who was then USA president Dwight D Eisenhower’s brother, Milton Eisenhower. The university started expanding their offerings, attracting large federal grants, expanding their sports program, and building up and modernizing the campus and facilities. State College’s downtown and surrounding areas began to flourish. There was even talk of renaming State College to McCallisterville, and other various names, since the college had become a full-fledged university.

The town began to grow rapidly in the 1970’s as the University continued rising to national prominence. The town gained even more traction when the University joined the Big Ten Conference in 1990. State College as a result continues to grow and densify today. It now has arguably the 3rd (or, definitely in the Top 5) best downtowns in the entire state of PA, behind only Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and only a couple of others, depending on your preferences/criteria.

TLDR: There was no real need for passenger rail service to State College, until much more recently. That is why it does not exist.

Also given the mountainous terrain, it would be hard to build a continuous rail service up into Nittany Valley. You would need a series of tunnels. Just look at how treacherous 322 (Seven Mountains pass towards Lewistown) and I-99 (between Altoona and Port Matilda) are. So the cost to build that infrastructure would be quite steep, no pun intended.

Amtrak is really helping Lancaster and Harrisburg a lot - both have Amtrak stations. It’s a shame State College isn’t in on the action, too. State College has come a long way, and I imagine it will continue to do well without rail service. I mean, look at how much the airport there has expanded. How much the state is pouring into finishing I-99 and upgrading 322, and building a new 99/80 interchange. State College is still a priority site for state and federal infrastructure, I would imagine.

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vortical42 OP t1_j7vafvv wrote

I wonder if there is any potential for a light rail service if a full fledged Amtrak connection is off the table? Busses have their limits, especially when the roads are already congested by game day to traffic.

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gggg500 t1_j7vavgl wrote

State College has one of the most robust bus systems in the state. By ridership it is actually one of the best bus systems in the country. I am a city nerd and once compiled this data and I believe State College was something like #77 in the whole USA by total annual ridership. Though, these figures were all before covid. I have the data saved and can dig it up for you if you are interested.

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drxdrg08 t1_j7liq9a wrote

> Was there every any serious discussion of doing this

Is there any serious data to support that there is enough demand to pay for it using fares?

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Mrstucco t1_j7o3ua0 wrote

Off topic, but this reminded me of a time when I was in college and I dropped my brother off at the Harrisburg train station. I overheard a group of college aged kids who had apparently bought Amtrak tickets to Lewistown thinking it would get them to Bucknell University, which is actually in Lewisburg. They got off the train in Hbg when they realized the error and were trying to figure out how to get to Lewisburg. There was no bus until the next day, so I wound up giving them a ride.

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Taztiger72 t1_j7ls0kq wrote

Never gonna happen. GM ripped up all the tracks in the 50's

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axeville t1_j7m4948 wrote

You can buy everyone a Tesla for the cost of rail at this point. (And we are already buying the first 7500 so just expand the program to free cars for all and get rid of public transportation altogether. /s)

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PACubsFan23 t1_j7mss01 wrote

Having grown up close to SC, there was some discussion back in the 80’s & 90’s about it, but from what I can recall, the existing rail lines in nearby Bellefonte would not be able to handle the load of Amtrak. It’s a historic railroad, and is rarely used. To lay new tracks to SC, along with the work to cut through or over the mountains to Tyrone, were/are costly. Would love to see it happen, though!

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1989throwa t1_j8t9tnc wrote

Circling back around to this: if you live or work in or near State College, reach out to a board member who represents your county. They DO have a time for Public Forum the second Wednesday of the month at 12:30PM, but you can submit emails that get read then as well.

You can also reach out to Dr. John Spychalski who is chair of the "Passenger Excursion Committee."

If citizens raise their voices, we are more likely to see things happen.

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1989throwa t1_j9prag4 wrote

Found out the main reason getting excursions out of the State College area is hard: insurance.

When the lines installed Positive Train Control (PTC) systems, the company that sold them the PTC systems did not want to be sued at all, should a crash happen. What happened was that the insurance for the North Shore Railroad Company would be SIGNIFICANTLY higher, as in, too high to run any trains for them to run on Norfolk Southern lines.

The main company that has rail cars for excursions is based in Northumberland, but to contract Norfolk Southern to transport the cars is a pricey proposition. It can be done, but it would need to be done twice to get to Lock Haven.

Unfortunately there was about 7 miles of track torn up that, if it still existed, would have allowed for a direct connection between Williamsport and Lock Haven/Mill Hall. To make matters even more complicated, it looks like there has been construction on top of that old railbed, so it isn't a very straightforward repair. (Also there is a rail bridge that needs to be fixed on this line.)

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TSUTigers95 t1_j7lh5lx wrote

Contact Amtrak and ask them.

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artificialavocado t1_j7lya02 wrote

I didn’t even know they ran passenger service from Pittsburgh to Philly.

Also all rail lines in the US should be seized and owned by the public. Maybe then we can actually get decent rail passenger service in this country.

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Mr_Fraunces t1_j7m1ag5 wrote

>should be seized and owned by the public

They have been federalized. Amtrak is the passenger service and Conrail is the freight service.

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artificialavocado t1_j7m42q6 wrote

Almost all railroads are privately owned in the US save a few lines in the Northeast Corridor. Amtrak is a public passenger service running on private lines. That’s why it sucks. The private freight companies always prioritize their stuff over Amtrak.

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SendAstronomy t1_j7nyyjc wrote

Amtrak owns its line between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. It's why the service there is good and beyond that they get stuck behind Norfolk Southern trains trying to get to and from Pittsburgh.

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Newt451 t1_j7opfx7 wrote

seized? o.k. comrade.

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artificialavocado t1_j7os8bq wrote

These people love socialism when it is for them. When it is me or you it’s “bootstraps.” When you run to “big government” these guys say they hate looking for a handout or public intervention because their business is going under, fine, then the public becomes part owner until it is paid back. That’s how business is supposed to work. We don’t even have capitalism anymore. This is corporatism.

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