UVM Med - Billing Dept is a fun ride.

Submitted by cpujockey t3_11zl7h0 in vermont

I am settling the estate of my friend and god damn... I just got notice that they want their pound of flesh from my dead room mate who died back in 2021.

He was in a car crash that fucked him up - but he had medicaid. Medicaid did not pay the bill and now shit's all fucked up. Now I am dealing with their claim against the estate while I was promised the assets of the estate from his family to cover the costs of cleaning up / fixing up the damage he did to my home while living there / dying there. So with life being all crazy I haven't seen the notices from UVM med until now and I have to figure this shit out and it's a fucking mess.

Calling UVM Med billing dept was worthless, they didn't care, said well medicaid was supposed to pay it.. but did not offer anything in the way of telling me the executor how to help expedite the process or assist.

I fucking hate the way all this shit works, looks like I might be stuck holding the bag.

Happy Thursday folks!

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Comments

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one-zero t1_jdcw0mh wrote

All I’m going to say is don’t pay anything at all unless it’s been through probate and assets have been itemized on paper. I have a friend who pays $1 a month for a spleen removal. I have one who got a $32,000 dollar bill for a helicopter ride and had full coverage blue cross/blue shield. You’ll get bills for more than a year but unless he/she had money or assets it’ll eventually get covered. Anything that’s of any value put it in an escrow account.

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getthetime t1_jdcwon2 wrote

Also worth noting that unless the OP's name is attached to the estate then not paying the bill will not affect his/her credit score, and UVM med can go suck a dick.

It's always good to keep in mind that any time a creditor threatens you, there is still only so much they can do. So unless they can come after you personally, I say let them send the notices and beg all they want. By the end the calendar year it becomes nothing more than a loss/write-off for them anyway.

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amoebashephard t1_jdcszos wrote

Have you talked to Medicaid? Pretty sure they should be paying out medical costs regardless of whether your friend survived or not. Sorry you are going through this.

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zombienutz1 t1_jdcumjf wrote

Have Medicaid and the hospital fight it out. If that doesn't work, have them itemize the bill, search costs of what services were performed, tell them you'll pay X amount.

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cpujockey OP t1_jdcyhyj wrote

Yeah that's what I was thinking.

There is money in the estate, But the crux of the issue is I need that money to fix the damage done to my place and I'm worried that UVM med is going to go for the jugular.

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whaletacochamp t1_jddhxec wrote

Dude you're smarter than this. Get an estate lawyer before you do anything else. Honestly surprised to see you doing anything other than this.

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cpujockey OP t1_jddkk7p wrote

> Get an estate lawyer before you do anything else.

I tried in the beginning - they did not want to work with me.

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whaletacochamp t1_jddl5zm wrote

Why? Seems this is exactly the type of work they’d do

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cpujockey OP t1_jddlwzo wrote

ask ouimette and runcy that question. I used them for settling my father's estate and they wouldnt touch this one.

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whaletacochamp t1_jddn09k wrote

Give the hospital main switchboard (802-847-0000) a call and ask for patient advocacy. They’ve helped me get someone with human emotions and common sense on the phone from billing. You’re dealing with a peon upholding the letter of their procedure right now. You likely need a higher up to facilitate resubmitting to Medicaid/fighting that battle.

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cpujockey OP t1_jddobtd wrote

I asked the 'peon' on the line if there was anything I could do to help expedite the process with medicaid- they were no help. I'll have words with the patient advocacy thing soon.

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timberwolf0122 t1_jdd05z2 wrote

I don’t have anything helpful, but I did want to say this doesn’t happen in other countries.

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whaletacochamp t1_jddi5oe wrote

Which is why it's silly to pin this on UVMMC. This is a USA problem.

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[deleted] t1_jdd556s wrote

Lawyer up and don’t pay or say shit until you do.

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rivunel t1_jddc762 wrote

Don't pay it. They can't collect money from a dead man if he had no liquid assets at death its pretty hard for them to go after that money.

EDIT: to add to this unless your a spouse debts don't really transfer. It is the job of the estate to pay for it. Of he didn't have much in his estate the hospital gets jack shit.

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cpujockey OP t1_jddd61o wrote

> Don't pay it.

I am waiting to see here what happens with medicaid, they were supposed to pay the bill 2 years ago.

I am the executor. I might be liable cause I fucked up some shit with the estate. The deceased owes me A LOT of money for damages to the dwelling, cig smoke, broken flooring, improper shower install, and also dying on the floor. So I need to recoup those costs in their entirety.

as it stands, I have paid for his cremation, funeral, and other stuff, I have been reimbursed. But the house stuff I cant shake on. Medicaid failed to pay this bill when he was alive and it might be passed the window for it to be paid off via medicaid. So this is a fun situation.

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rivunel t1_jddk87q wrote

But they can only make you pay money from his estate. If you can show money from his estate went to other bills.

If you had past bills they owed you money for GET THE BILLS IN WRITING. If you have an old lease agreement anything like that make sure you have a record of the debt.

https://legislature.vermont.gov/statutes/section/14/066/01205

There is an order that debts have to be paid off in.

Any costs you incurred while carrying out the terms of the estate are the FIRST thing you pay off. I think You can make a case that the cost of your paid off debts is a cost of executing the will.

The second is the funeral and burial and along with any medical costs of the LAST illness of the decedent. If that was 2 years prior was that his LAST illness? If not you're honestly probably fine.

3rd is paying their employees.( seems asinine this is after medical expenses tbh)

4th is any other claims I ASSUME the hospital crap falls under there.

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cpujockey OP t1_jddksag wrote

Thank you this info is helpful!

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Dukaso t1_jdkb8hs wrote

Hey buddy, I just want to reiterate, don't give those leeches a god damn cent of your own money. Also NEVER acknowledge the debt as YOUR debt. This is the estate's debt, and you need to always refer to it as such. Money is weird and if you ever acknowledge the debt is yours UVMMC is going to try to suck you dry.

Even if you were promised the estate, don't ever refer to the debt as yours by proxy. You're going to inherit the remainder of the estate (if there is any) after everyone gets their pound of flesh. Even if you're representing the estate, the debt always belongs to "the estate", not "you".

Don't give them a chance to screw you. It's so fucked up that we have to worry about semantics when dealing with the death of people close to us.

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rivunel t1_jddkxhe wrote

No problem I had to do it a couple of times at the homeless shelter. But the last time was 4 or so years ago I knew I was forgetting something.

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13badluck13 t1_jddl3li wrote

>Medicaid failed to pay this bill when he was alive and it might be passed the window for it to be paid off via medicaid.

If you have their Medicaid info and they had active coverage at the time of the billing Medicaid will pay. The hospital just needs to resubmit the bill. Call Vermont Health Connect and I can guarantee they'll tell you the same... assuming this was VT Medicaid that they had.

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cpujockey OP t1_jddeusv wrote

> They can't collect money from a dead man if he had no liquid assets at death

he had money when he died.

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you_give_me_coupon t1_jdd6sk3 wrote

Daily reminder that even the worst-case right-wing estimates are that Medicare for All would save $300 billion a year - in addition to preventing shitshows like this. The reason we have horrific billing processes like this instead of universal healthcare is not because the latter would cost more.

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vincegrove t1_jdd6ilb wrote

Try posting to r/legaladvice

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VTMomof2 t1_jdd6quo wrote

I'll be going thru this soon too. My husband died and owes UVM for his final ER visit. Luckily its only a few grand, but they can pound sand because all he has in his estate is a couple used cars and a 25+ year old boat and he has alot more debt than assets. I'm still waiting for the probate court the accept my e-filing.

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GrilledSpamSteaks t1_jdd9huf wrote

Are you sure you are the executor of his estate? Don’t commit to anything. Even if his family promises the world, unless it’s in writing and notarized, it’s worthless. Roommates have no legal authority over someone else’s assets.

Edit: The executor can be anyone over 18 who isn’t a felon, but it’s typically a lawyer, accountant or family member. Frankly, I’d get a lawyer involved because you shouldn’t be left holding the bag for anything beyond his assets.

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cpujockey OP t1_jddc9wx wrote

> You aren’t the executor of his estate.

yes I am. I was given permission from his family and filed the paper work with the courts. I am Executor and Fiduciary.

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GrilledSpamSteaks t1_jddcxi5 wrote

Then get a lawyer. Executors have limited liability, but if you don’t know the line, the billers will keep pushing you over it.

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cpujockey OP t1_jdddd5w wrote

> Then get a lawyer.

I tried - Ouimette and runcie wouldn't work with me on this one. They were great for my father's estate, but because this guy died poor with no real physical assets - I think they wanted nothing to do with it.

> Executors have limited liability

yes and in the case I might be liable. however their filing being nearly 2 years after his death at the brink of closing out the estate is bad form on their behalf.

I never liked UVM med. charging someone $400 for a wheel chair rental for an hour is fucking stupid.

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GrilledSpamSteaks t1_jdddzgn wrote

This is why you need a lawyer. They should have made all claims within a specified time. If they missed that gate, they are sol. If you made promises, then you are on the hook.

https://legislature.vermont.gov/statutes/section/14/066/01203

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cpujockey OP t1_jddemdp wrote

Yeah I wanted to hire a lawyer - Ouimett and Rumsey was great when my dad died, but they had no interest taking on this estate and told me to do it myself. SO now we're here.

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VetMedicUSA t1_jdddnza wrote

The hospital should be going after the Medicaid, but it’s easier for them to go after an individual because individuals typically cannot afford a decent lawyer.

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youbetyourasparagus t1_jddpvps wrote

Did your friend have auto insurance? That’s the only reason I can think of for why the medical bills wouldn’t be covered by Medicaid. Usually when it comes to car accidents, the auto insurance is the primary payer, and the health insurance picks up as secondary.

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whaletacochamp t1_jddhr7u wrote

I'm sorry for your loss and what you are going through.

This is not unique to UVMMC. This is a nationwide issue that shouldn't be an issue in the first place and wouldn't be with a single payer system. Also this particular scenario has a lot of legal nuance that cannot really be portrayed well here.

So again I feel for you and what you're going through, but I don't agree with placing the blame for this issue on the UVMMC billing department. They are telling you what they can/have to do from their one tiny piece of this absurdly complex puzzle.

You need an estate lawyer. End of story.

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Otto-Korrect t1_jddi720 wrote

I feel your pain, I had similar dealings with the deaths of 4 immediate family.

Another trick Dartmouth tried on my is that they delayed billing my insurance company until it was too late, then came at ME For payment since they couldn't collect from the insurance. How is their terrible billing setup MY problem?

Or when they bill me for an 'out of newtwork' service IN THEIR OWN HOSPITAL because the DR reading an MRI was not in network and I didn't get prior authorization.

Medicare will get their pound of flesh in the end. The only way around it really is to 'use up' the assets in some other way before Medicare gets their slice, but it may be too late for that.

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deadowl t1_jddm2uf wrote

IANAL, sounds like you need to prorate the second line-item of distribution: https://legislature.vermont.gov/statutes/section/14/066/01205

As executor (I guess in this case because he had no will your title is technically administrator--moot difference), you have a right to access his medical records including billing under HIPAA. Make sure to be specific on format or they'll send you a bunch of gobbeldygook that's faxed, printed and rescanned into a PDF without text search or anything. I'm pretty sure you have to contact any imaging departments directly (you'd want to ask their records department) if they did anything like MRIs/CTs/X-Rays which they'd likely send you on DVDs in DICOM format with a viewer baked into the DVD.

You can also check the statutes to see if there was a time limit on the hospital making the claim.

There is a time limit to respond to records requests and if they omit anything requested without providing reason you can file a complaint with the federal Office of Civil Rights (OCR) which is the government body that enforces HIPAA.

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Stockmom42 t1_jddgrre wrote

Tell them to resubmit the claim to medicaid

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Nutmegdog1959 t1_jddi52x wrote

I am very sorry for your late friend and for you having to go through this. I worked with an estate lawyer and appeared many times in Surrogates Court.

I'm guessing your friend died intestate?

I understand you have filed to become executor, but if you have not been approved yet I would suggest you do not negotiate or spend a single penny on behalf of the estate.

Keep all your receipts and records for anything that has been spent thus far.

Your liability as executor is very limited as long as you follow the rules.

Call the Lawyers Referral Service. Explain to them the estate is very modest, you as executor are also of modest means and ask if there is a service or law firm that will offer consultation or appearance pro bono.

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cpujockey OP t1_jddkgvi wrote

> I'm guessing your friend died intestate?

no will or anything. was poor, died with some money that was part of settlement for said car crash. Found him dead on the floor the day after my birthday.

> Your liability as executor is very limited as long as you follow the rules.

I might have fucked up.

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Nutmegdog1959 t1_jddqlcy wrote

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. The Court isn't out to screw anybody over their ignorance or error. It's mostly the kids who get ahold of the parents' estate and start spending money or grabbing the jewelry they thought they were entitled to.

Surrogates Court (in NY) and Probate Court here are not particularly contentious courtrooms. Everybody understands there is a job to do, and that the estate needs to be divided up fairly.

If you submit a bill to the estate for the damages and the costs you have incurred, I'm sure the judge will recognize that and compensate you appropriately.

There are also statutory commissions ($) for the executor but I'm not sure how much that is here in VT.

It's not the most pleasant experience but it is something many of us have to go through.

700-00302.pdf (vermontjudiciary.org)

Good Luck.

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deadowl t1_jddwu4u wrote

Looks like the hospital would only have four months following the publication of the Notice to Creditors to claim a debt. Then looks like you gotta send a Disallowance of Claim within 60 days of receiving the claim. which they have 60 days to respond to. And you want to send that certified mail so you have the full tracking information.

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Otto-Korrect t1_jddinyy wrote

IF a lawyer can show that you had that expense first, just maybe they'll let it be payed out of the estate to spend down is assets before they get their fingers on it.

You can also charge reasonable 'estate agent' fees against the assets.

NAL, but I've been to this rodeo a few times.

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Paid-Not-Payed-Bot t1_jddip2u wrote

> it be paid out of

FTFY.

Although payed exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:

  • Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. The deck is yet to be payed.

  • Payed out when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. The rope is payed out! You can pull now.

Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.

Beep, boop, I'm a bot

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Blueslide60 t1_jde431n wrote

They expect you to scramble and panic, don’t. Not sure what legal position you have, executor? Relative? Regardless of that you need some legal advice and possibly representation. These finance people are not your friends.

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Eternally65 t1_jdi2ukj wrote

My experience with UVMMC billing is that every time you pay a bill, they send another. It's as if their billing department thinks, "Aha! We got a live one here". But if you wait a long time, they are more likely to accept a payment and just go away.

At least, that has worked for me.

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Velveteenrocket t1_jdonxnl wrote

Send them 20 bucks and say here’s all his estate

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cpujockey OP t1_jdouj6k wrote

That's now how this works. Estate was inventoried a month after filing. I did the right things in regards to that.

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