Submitted by hunny_bun_24 t3_11ykh4y in vermont
There’s no need for 4 day work weeks and it’ll attract a lot of new residents which will lead to new development (who knows how affordable it would be) which the state needs! I feel states like Vermont that lack professional talent/people in general, really should start looking into how to seriously attract people
While I would personally love a four day work week, there's are issues around this that make me think that this has to be done at least nationwide.
Lots of people here work for companies that are from out of state. The people that manage those companies may not agree with this (whether justified or not, that's not the issue). That would mean those companies might avoid hiring people in Vermont and might avoid having offices or facilities in Vermont.
I agree. I have been working remotely for years. My last job search, I was qualified and the recruiter wanted me, but the client would not hire anyone in Vermont. That was the first time that had happened. It got me thinking: is this a sign of the future?
So, I agree. Best to push at the national level.
Did they say why?
Maybe you dodged a bullet.
I mean more likely than not you would still be working a 5 day work week if you work at an out of state company. When you are full time salary there isn't really an enforcement for how many days you work.
Are you fucking crazy? Attract MORE?!?!!? Have you been under a rock? Seems a bit upside down considering the current state of things. Maybe we should worry a bit more about those already here. Fuck more.
Your comment implies that too many people are moving here, and that is just not happening. Vermont's population has grown 5% since 2000. From the census, the population is now 645,570. In 2000, it was 609,618.
(645,570 - 609,618) / 645,570 = 5.6%
Our population growth in the last year, according to the census, is less than 100 people.
Compare that to the 15% growth in that same time period of the US as a whole, and it'll be pretty obvious that the problem isn't that we're attracting too many people. To be clear, I'm not arguing that we should attract more people, but the problems we have now are not because tons of people are moving here, and until we stop blaming "out of staters" for everything, we'll never solve them.
Not blaming out of staters for anything. Just challenging the idea that more growth is needed or even better. Everything has a cost benefit. I don’t buy the bullshit and arguably dated old and myopic arguments for endless growth. Vermont should truly be progressive and embrace and lead in de-growth, a system not dependent upon consumption and more. Just take one look at where endless growth and consumption is leading us…
I’ve seen all too often where falsely incentivizing growth leads us as well and it’s not pretty and those who benefit typically aren’t left holding the bill in the aftermath.
I wholeheartedly agree! It's really nice to see someone advocating for de-growth! If you look at the other comments, a lot of people talk about how all the people moving here have made everything expensive or whatever, so I misread your comment to be against attracting people to move here for similar reasons. Apologies :)
I’m an out of stater myself. Yes, it turns out that I was lucky and moved here prior to this housing crisis that is nationwide and more due to wealth inequality than anything else. I’m grateful everyday for that but hate that a mix of desperation from some and impatience and self centered blinders from others has them beating a drum that will overwhelmingly benefit the uber-capitalist fat cats and not deliver the utopia they dream. Shit sucks right now for far too many, period, hard stop. My heart breaks for the housing insecure and my comments are not intended to minimize their struggles but developers are not our saviors. This crisis is an opportunity for a paradigm shift rather than a band-aid, but I’m not holding my breath. My focus is my kid, and the generations beyond but I fear that we’re screaming into the wind. I’m not going to advocate kicking the can down the road any longer. We don’t need so much of what so many are convinced we need to live a meaningful and good life. We need a healthy ecosystem. Somewhere someone has to say stop, enough.
Edit: To clarify before anyone misreads and tries to tell me what I said or mean, I’m NOT grateful for the housing crisis or wealth inequality. I’m grateful that I was just lucky (and was quite patient) that I moved here at a time when houses sat on the market for many months to years and people weren’t stepping on each other and trying to outcompete locals for housing. I’m grateful that I was seen through a positive lens back then. Unfortunately that’s just not now.
I like the spirit of the idea. I think we should all be working less. But I have yet to see a good answer to how this will be handled for hourly workers. No employer is just going to give their hourly workers a 25% increase in pay to offset the reduced hours.
I just want to point out that you could say this same thing about the 5 day week, the 40 hour week, sick days, safety standards, holidays, etc. Each of these concessions was extracted by a labor movement, not given freely by employers, or even the result of market forces. If we want it, we need to take it together. Until we do, we'll keep working longer hours for wages that continue to stagnate. United we bargain; divided we beg.
Open up a business and give your employees a 4 day work week.
Or form a union and bargain for one.
At will employment in Vermont might make that a bit more difficult.
Being fired for union activity is one of the only things employers aren't allowed to fire you for. Not saying that'll actually be enforced. No one said labor struggles were easy, just that they're worthwhile.
That is not my understanding of the law.
Your understanding of the law is incorrect. If that happened to you or someone you know, you should contact the NLRB.
>You have the right to form, join or assist a union.
>You have the right to organize a union to negotiate with your employer over your terms and conditions of employment. This includes your right to distribute union literature, wear union buttons t-shirts, or other insignia (except in unusual "special circumstances"), solicit coworkers to sign union authorization cards, and discuss the union with coworkers. Supervisors and managers cannot spy on you (or make it appear that they are doing so), coercively question you, threaten you or bribe you regarding your union activity or the union activities of your co-workers. You can't be fired, disciplined, demoted, or penalized in any way for engaging in these activities.
>Working time is for work, so your employer may maintain and enforce non-discriminatory rules limiting solicitation and distribution, except that your employer cannot prohibit you from talking about or soliciting for a union during non-work time, such as before or after work or during break times; or from distributing union literature during non-work time, in non-work areas, such as parking lots or break rooms. Also, restrictions on your efforts to communicate with co-workers cannot be discriminatory. For example, your employer cannot prohibit you from talking about the union during working time if it permits you to talk about other non-work-related matters during working time.
edit: add emphasis
Why on earth would you want more people in this state? I dont even live in Vermont and id hate to see that. Youll just turn into Mass/ Southern NH
Yeah, the part of Vermont that's great is that its not an urban hellscape. These people really just need to move to Boston.
Yeah. Most of it isnt too corporatized either. Its practically a time capsule with all the old structures and town centers and road patterns. Sprawl happens so ridiculously quick lots people dont have the observation of what happens in such a short time. Im from Eastern CT and in 35years so much has changed, i could ramble about this topic all day
We're already there. The word is out, "Vermont" ceased to exist sometime in 2021.
You feel that Vermont lacks professional people, in general? I don't understand where this comes from.
Agreed. This sentiment is 100% bullshit. VT does not lack professionals or high tech workers. VT lacks people who will work those jobs for VT wages where they can double their pay by living 4 hours away.
That has not been my experience lately. We lack anyone under 50 looking for work.
I agree, but this is something that should be done on the national scale. Otherwise like the ruling probably wouldn't effect much.
People say 4-day work week, and lots of people assume there will be 3-day weekends every week. This just will not be the case. Scheduling has to account for staff overlap and coverage on days when others are not working. This would be doubly true for businesses and jobs that require staffing 7 days/week, especially in the service industry.
And what does a 4-day work week really entail? Are we talking about working 20% fewer hours/week for the same pay? For less pay? Are we talking about working 4 days/week at 10 hours/day for the same pay? I'm sure there are multiple answers, depending on the job.
People that advocate for it when they have jobs where it’d work. Doesn’t work for the majority of jobs
This is the problem, most people would be moved to part time and lose 20% of their pay. It works for folks with cushy office jobs that have real downtime and can get “40 hours” done in 32. It doesn’t work for everyone else. Most jobs don’t have real downtime, even when you’re idle you’re waiting to work in uniform.
Won’t work for anyone in healthcare, mental health, labor, etc… like you said, only works for office jobs
Exactly, it only benefits people who already have jobs that are not physically demanding and where they’re only spending 40 hours a week at work because that’s what is expected. Trash haulers, cooks, nanny’s, carpenters, security guards, EMT’s, retail staff etc etc. won’t benefit.
Plus most VT companies are small and can’t afford to pay 8 less hours with same weekly total. Instead of shortened work weeks we should continue pushing for higher wages
> And what does a 4-day work week really entail? Are we talking about working 20% fewer hours/week for the same pay? For less pay?
32 hours of work per week with the same pay is generally what people are going for
you really don't lose even close to 20% productivity. personally when I swapped to 4 day work weeks, it meant I didn't want to drive into a lake for 2-3 work days a week, so I ended up being more productive overall. I don't dread monday as much.
This is true for some jobs, not most. Pretty much only office jobs can their hours by 20% and maintain similar productivity.
maybe not the majority of jobs, but probably the plurality of jobs could cut hours and still remain productive
Greatly doubt it. Please explain why you think so, I’d be happy to listen.
probably a plurality of jobs are office jobs or jobs where reduced hours don't effect productivity. it may not be a majority but it is probably the largest piece of pie.
obviously warehouse workers will load less trucks in 4 days than 5. even then I don't think it's a 20% loss of productivity (there'll be a lot less lazy shit going on), but I don't imagine it could be a positive for productivity like office jobs.
“A lot less lazy shit” said like someone that doesn’t do manual labor, that kills my desire to hear your thoughts since you’re biased. Most jobs aren’t office jobs. Most people will only lose money.
I worked in a warehouse for four years lol. That's why I specifically used that example, is because I actually know about it. What do you mean by "biased"? There's a lot of fucking off that happens that would definitely be reduced. Just general standing around and chatting, or not doing the best thing at that moment, trying to sneak off and mess around for a while, etc.
Maybe you've never worked in one, but there's a lot of shenanigans that goes on.
That said, it was awful and the company treated us like dog food, so it's possible in a company that has more respect for its workers, this would be less of the case. I'd also expect mistakes (ie, tipping over pallets and other very time consuming stuff) to happen much less frequently if employees could actually recharge between work weeks. At the end of my stint there, I was one of the most senior guys, and I'd only been there three years. Turnover was very high.
So you work in a low volume poorly disciplined warehouse, doubt that’s the norm.
I don't want to dox myself, but I assure you it was not low volume. Hundreds of employees, millions of dollars a day.
Obviously, you've never worked in a warehouse lol.
Meaning four 10-hour days, or four 8-hour days?
Haha 40 hours. Wouldn't that be nice? Most people I know who actually work here are understaffed by like 30% or more and are working well over 40 hours.
I hear you!!
Vermont's low population is what helps keep it Vermont
That should be in the past tense. "before 2020, Vermont's low population is what kept it Vermont."
Vermont's population is virtually unchanged from 2020. April 1 2020 population count was 643,085. In July 2022 it was 647,064. From July 2021 to July 2022, it increased by fewer than 100.
edit: Necessary_Cat_4801 blocked me so I am adding an edit here for those of you who are interested in actually solving problems instead of burying your heads in the sand by blaming out of staters for decades of neoliberal policy failure.
>I'm going to believe my eyes and the digger (and every other local media outlet) over people who seem to have a vested interest in pretending that increased demand during and after the pandemic hasn't affected housing prices.
I can't tell if this person thinks the US Census has some weird conflict of interest, or if it's me. Either way, a pretty bizarre thing to say. My own interest is just one of a card-carrying socialist and activist that cares about myself, my friends, and my neighbors. If you're worried I'm like a landlord or something, I think my post history will clear that up pretty quick lol. /u/twombls will vouch for me on that one. But you don't have to believe me, go read the data for yourself: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/VT
Also, to be clear, I'm not saying no out of state people moved here. Some out of state people are moving to Vermont, because people do move here sometimes, but it is not some great migration. There were several thousand people who moved here at the beginning of the pandemic, and you can see that in the census. But like I said, the population of Vermont increased by fewer than 100 people from 2021 to 2022. Even that initial migration is absolutely tiny, though compared to other years it is quite big, relatively, it still amounted to less than 1% of our population. These are absolutely tiny growth numbers.
Also, who said the pandemic hasn't affected housing prices? It absolutely did, but it didn't do it through some fox news style caravan of out of staters coming to take your jobhouse. It's incredible to me how many people on this sub insist on blaming people from places like Massachusetts for decades of policy failure at the state and national level. It is the most small-minded, myopic xenophobia I have ever seen in my life, made even dumber by how trivially disprovable it is with freely available census data. Absolutely fucking pathetic. At least Fox News caravan weirdos have the excuse that Mexico is actually a different country with a pretty different culture whose people speak a different language. Meanwhile, someone here sees a few Texas license plates and starts using the phrase "covid colonists." Give me a fucking break.
Something is off. Home prices are increasing at rates never seen before and I've never seen a viable explanation other than people moving here during the pandemic.
What other explanation is there for the largest increase since records starting being kept?
Home prices are through the roof all over the world, not just in Vermont. There are exceptions, but in general, home prices are up. They're up in places that are building a lot or not at all. They're up in places with a lot of regulation and less regulation, in warm climates and cold climates, in cities and rural towns. They're up in Canada, Europe, Africa, and Oceania.
Something is off, but it's not the census numbers. It's way bigger than out of staters moving to Vermont, which, again, is not happening.
"It's way bigger than out of staters moving to Vermont, which, again, is not happening."
That's just silly. Anyone with eyes can see that is happening. I can't pretend that the town I live in is not full of out of state plates. The most recent batch of arrivals is from Texas, oddly enough. All of a sudden tons of Texas plates around. I'm going to believe my eyes and the digger (and every other local media outlet) over people who seem to have a vested interest in pretending that increased demand during and after the pandemic hasn't affected housing prices.
From the Globe: "But the pandemic brought a countervailing force. Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire have seen an uptick in new residents arriving from other states, more than 50,000 across the three states since April 2020, even as other Northeastern states — and especially large metro areas — have experienced a surge in out-migration."
But yeah, let's pretend no one is moving here because that is preferable, for reasons I don't understand.
You have it backwards, we don’t have housing for people already
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I think the op is talking about the need to attract a workforce, which is true. Hiring is impossible here unless you want to teach a 60 year old how to turn on a computer. The problem is its hard to convince people to come here for jobs when the jobs won't cover the cost of housing.
VT as a place where people live and work is dead and gone, covid killed that. VT will be a place with lots of people working from home and driving out of state to a grocery store or to get a haircut because those things are no longer available in VT.
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I think there won't be anyone local to cut hair because you have to cut a lot of hair to come up with half a million dollars in cash for a house.
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People that work for hourly wages are dangerously close to not being able to afford to live
It's definitely not worth it here if you can get out. Let VT turn into Long Island.
So where you from originally? And have you been to Vermont or just Burlington/Stowe?
4-day work week is great for cities, that are office jobs, not too great for anything else.
What is your argument for a 4 day work week? I couldn't figure that out. Was it intended to make the state even more attractive? Right now there is a influx of out of staters coming here.
There is no influx of out of staters moving here. You can trivially debunk this by looking at Vermont's population in the census. From July 2021 to July 2022, Vermont's population increased by less than 100 people. A few thousand moved here one year, and everyone freaked out about it, and continues to freak out about it, despite it being less than 1% of the total population. Since then, it has returned to flatline.
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Don't we already have a 5 day work week? Most places are closed sun-monday
I'm curious how many people posting on this topic are actually at work right now and commenting on Reddit when they should be working, myself included.
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Do you mean for state employees?
d-cent t1_jd82063 wrote
While i totally agree and think there should be a 4 day work week, or will never happen until health care isn't connected to your employment. Universal Healthcare is the first brick to fall in order to have 4 day work week.
We have been trying to get Universal Healthcare legislation passed on a federal level since the 90s and have been discussing it since the 70s.