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joeydokes t1_j8l2bz0 wrote

Oh joy, a newcomer arrives in 2019 and proceeds to write a tome (on their substack) describing a place they barely understand, from an ivory tower academia burg; thinking they got a handle on what drives folk both to and from this place they've just landed in.

And the conclusion? More libertarianism! You're painful ignorance if makes it obvious that don't know rural, don't know surviving off the land, or what makes Vermont tick. You assert hippy infestation and conservation mated to stubborn agriculture resistance to change is bad blood in need of a transfusion.

The issues being faced are little different than those in other States, specially all of northern New England. Covid and 2020 changed everything; making what's bad worse. Income inequity has made things worse. Corruption's made things worse. Crappy for-profit healthcare making many 1 serious emergency away from bankruptcy, paying our dentist's kids college tuition w/our cavities for lack of good insurance...

But no, you look to Jim Douglas as someone worth quoting; that's a laugh (at your expense).

The reason people (like you?) move here is because conservation is what has kept billboards from dotting the pastoral landscape. Communalism is what gives everyone a voice; even if it gets ignored by the 'town fathers'. Vermonters are kind, but not nice. Spend a year around Enosburg or the hamlets of the mountains, then tell us what you've learned; instead of acting like you're Warren telling the people of Roxbury what their problems are. What do you know about agriculture; farming and forestry, the working landscape? What do you know about wearing many hats to pay the bills?

You favor the same 'open for business' modal that's left other places with toxic waste dumps left to clean at the taxpayer's expense?

IMO you should keep your opinions to yourself and let the Vermonters who've been here for decades and know its workings intimately hash out fixing its problems. Instead of trying to make it look like where ever TF you came from.

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Eternally65 t1_j8l7xei wrote

This amuses me. I remember in the late1960s how the most recent arrivals - including the hippies, and weren't they fun to watch - told all of us natives how we had better "stop this development or we will lose what makes Vermont special". Or, as my father put it, "Now that I'm here, close the door". Nothing has changed there. We still get new arrivals, living in new developments, saying the same old thing.

As far as economic development goes, the dynamic of young Vermonters leaving to find work has been going on for decades, probably for centuries. My father, and most of my 8 uncles, all left the state for jobs in their 20s. None of them wanted to stay on the dairy farm. "Too much work for too little money". I left, too, and it took me decades before I could return, taking a massive income cut to do so. When I myself was hiring, I got resumes from way over qualified applicants from out of state for most positions. (No, I rarely hired them. They had a habit of moving up and immediately starting to look for another job.)

Do I have a solution? Of course not. I am just exercising my God-given Vermonters right of complaining, by jeezum crow.

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joeydokes t1_j8lgogl wrote

> My father, and most of my 8 uncles, all left the state for jobs in their 20s. None of them wanted to stay on the dairy farm. "Too much work for too little money".

Thanks for your reply! I did Ag advocacy for about a decade (90's), mostly focused on feed costs, cull prices, finding labor, crop rotation, and a good chunk on succession and its prospects. in '99 I proposed doing a survey called 2020 - prospects of farming. Its a lot more than counting wheels:) I even suggested the Land Trust make allowances/exceptions to permit a co-housing plan in which those who farmed it lived rent-free, as it were, to address the succession issue. Not that it was a good idea, per say, so much as trying to think outside the box.

Kids leave the State since forever and its been a minute that your education taxes aren't making elsewhere more literate :) Fact is, for the rural parts, its boring AF; specially if not in a clique. We've done shit for supporting college because of it; tourism and second homes pays the bills (mostly) and keeps the trades in decent pay, so and raising (non-native) taxes is a lead balloon.

So instead we adapt to the new realities, which is what VSU is trying to do now due to lowering enrollments and higher costs. They're going Univ of Phoenix - Vermont Edition. Re-purposing libraries because mostly everyone doesn't go there for books. Cutting back sports because even the NCAA class is 3rd tier, few poor or minority students are going to turn pro and transpo costs alone are sky-high. VT doesn't need sports more than academic excellence, nor should it have to recruit from poor inner cities to boost enrollment. You'd be gobsmacked to know how many NVU students are 1st generation to get past HS.

Bet $5 will get you $8 closing Johnson w/in 3-5 years if not sooner. I don't envy those calling the shots, this sub is full of backlash and well-deserved calls for transparency. I know this bec wife is in academic support and I feel people's pain over uncertainty; but its the right (hard) call.

Encouraging teleworkers and knowledgeworkers is the right call, there should always be a livelihood in trades, in logging, in beef and hemp and like, if not in dairy. Dairy consolidation aside, my sis works an organic outfit (100ish head) near Poultney and they are getting by OK, but the parents are still in charge.

So, please don't think I'm complaining more than calling it as I see it. Most all commute 1hr to a job, outside of ChitCo the State is rural AF, Glover is no worse off for the hippies and Peter's circus, nor is MontP for the few still alive:)

Peace Out, bub!

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Sudden_Dragonfly2638 t1_j8m841i wrote

Take it from someone who spent their entire 36 years in VT. This essay is spot on. Act 250 is no longer needed the same way it was in the 70s. Regulators have created a strong framework for responsible development that exists apart from Act 250. When someone asks me to describe land use in VT I tell them to imagine it as a statewide HOA.

Zoning minimums are making it harder to build SFH. My house on 3.5 acres that is part of a neighborhood in rural VT subdivided in the 90s was rezoned to a 5 acre minimum several years ago. This means my neighborhood, if built today, would have significantly fewer lots than it does.

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[deleted] t1_j8met6g wrote

Seconded. (5th generation Vermonter here who has spent his life in land development.) Act 250 / Land Use described as Statewide HOA: 100% correct!

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joeydokes t1_j8nkuqs wrote

> I tell them to imagine it as a statewide HOA.

Spitballing here, but I'd say 80% of VT is rural hamlets and villes. So lets talk that: valleys with properties usually very near the road built when some farmer sub'd their land and excluded the pastures behind said new homes. Or, properties up along some hillside or gore off dirt roads in the woods. OK?

Those places are akin to HOA's only due to the fact that they're run by the 'town fathers'; the click that collectively ignores everyone at town meeting day to preserve the status quo :)

> My house on 3.5 acres that is part of a neighborhood in rural VT subdivided in the 90s was rezoned to a 5 acre minimum several years ago.

My homestead was on 5ac, abutted by substantially larger tracts of land; either some farm or some woods logged or sugarbushed. I like the 5ac and think 3.5ac would feel too confining if I had neighbors. 5ac is about the min amount that offers real privacy and peace/quiet. I say this bec I have friends on smaller lots and they beef about noise/neighbors with too much regularity.

Just my .02 - Peace Out!

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[deleted] t1_j8mhugd wrote

I agree with a lot of what you have said here. I also think that this article did a very good job in describing the problems for anyone trying to build an affordable single family home in Vermont. The article's depiction of issues created by Act 250 are spot on. So far, us "Vermonter's who have been here for decades" have not done anything in all that time to address those problems. As I stated elsewhere in this post, too many times I have witnessed the wealthy buy up a portion of a farm to build their McMansion, only to then turn around and use Act 250 and/or sue the same farmer to keep that farmer from building a smaller home nearby for a family member working that same farm. People need places to live, and reasonable housing development CAN be achieved without turning our state into a "toxic waste dump".

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joeydokes t1_j8niqep wrote

Many of the problems faced are not unique to VT, some (like graying and edu) are. Being a tourist State so close to the Tri-State corridor and 30M people is impactful too.

A lot of your assertions are correct. Many of these issues have persisted for a long time. Your anecdote regarding farmland may have merit, e.g. using 250 as a weapon. I also think that for as valuable as the VT Land Trust is, it needs more flexibility in addressing conservation vs succession issues. But the truth is that farming in VT is in peril. If not for lack of interest then for poor economy of scale. Beef, organic dairy, hemp, and the like have promise, but its still a threadbare life keeping the machines running.

Sure, its important to attract industries to work-centers like ChitCo, but outside of the 45-60minute commute, the rural problems are still going to be there regardless. I had hope for Newport, but that sure got F'd up. Maybe Hardwick can become a success story (a la Pete's greens and the like).

I just don't thing Big Business should be the first goto to find a fix to small State problems.

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[deleted] t1_j8nkaca wrote

100% agree with everything you just said, esp. about the VT Land Trust.

Breaks my heart what happened to the farmers and farming industry in this state, and the State should be doing A LOT MORE to support these new growth industries.

Fingers crossed for Newport too! Thank you for replying to me. :)

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joeydokes t1_j8nncyp wrote

and thanks for the convo! I can't speak to southern VT, or parts below #15 even FTM; despite having traipsed across the State to the point of knowing it blindfolded.

Farming and forestry is what makes VT special, what accounts for its pastoral beauty. VT does grass very well. Sadly the industries that use it are under stress, specially dairy; which started feeling the strain in late 80's early 90's with ops moving first to western NY, then later (with advent of reverse osmosis) to the southwest. Trying to compete with economies of scale elsewhere is a losing proposition.

Going organic, niche specialty dairy products, and the like helps to some degree but can't stem the trend of consolidation, which further erodes the prospect of more farmers via succession.

Thing is, if normal working class folk made a livable wage they could afford to buy produce/meat at those farmers' markets usually reserved for better off tourists and 2nd home owners. They could more directly support their neighbors; though I know that like me, many probably get their whole milk, eggs, beef even, from their neighbors operation.

But the elephant in the room is how little food security there is in Vermont despite being fertile and abundant. Not too different from how many kids would qualify as 1st gen to go to college.

They/it has not been a top priority, despite the bounty of advocates calling it out.

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[deleted] t1_j8nqgu3 wrote

I am so grateful you took the time to write all of that out. Hopefully you will bring some awareness to how our farming industry / food security crisis stems from the same problems that are causing our housing crisis: Impossible to fix either one independently from the other. Good on you!

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joeydokes t1_j8nrpbk wrote

Appreciate your kind words!

I don't know if its any different now than back in the 90's, but there is/was some degree of entrenchment at work.

In the case of Ag, it was those in position at the Farm Bureau, Coop extension and the State, whose focus was so narrow that they could not think outside the box. Granted, their constituency was probably the most anti-change, 'aint broke, don't fix' group to walk/work the earth. Understandably so, considering how little is actually in their perview of control.

Just pressing for things like crop rotation, low-till no-till, ... was a herculean task! So, advocates could only really push for what their audience was ready to hear.

These days, minds are much more open I suspect.

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[deleted] t1_j8nule4 wrote

"These days, minds are much more open I suspect."

I sure hope that you are right. Even if they are, there still needs to be a lot more education on the topic(s), and hopefully these conversations today helped in that regard.

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QualityRescue t1_j8l37u6 wrote

Aren't you from Maine? Who are you calling a newcomer?

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joeydokes t1_j8l55hb wrote

I'm a newcomer to Maine; and don't for a minute think of the irony when I'm posting on r/Maine; despite having the same sentiment vis-a-vis the stressors being faced.

I moved from (near eden) to ME a year ago. Partly because of costs, partly because I've gotten to old to buck/split wood and care for maintaining the homestead, partly to get out of a mortgage, mostly because said homestead is a 2-person operation that were something to happen 1 person couldn't handle the workload.

I would have stayed in VT were it not for insane RE prices, (even a house lot to throw up a tiny house), so after nearly 40 years, spouse-n-me decided to try a change. Maine (the ocean, the north woods) was a good choice, but despite visiting friends here regularly, I miss the greens that I know like the palm of my hand :)

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deadowl t1_j8ld174 wrote

Yo, may I take this moment to advertise the subreddit "Serving Exile in Flatland" user flair?

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SabbathBoiseSabbath t1_j8n2j4d wrote

Right? There's literally 49 other states that do things a different way, some more regulated, some less. And none have the charm or appeal of Vermont.

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golfguy15 t1_j8n11hj wrote

The painful ignorance is not understanding your points were refuted with facts. The tone of your comment is exactly what the article says is the problem with our State.

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joeydokes t1_j8ng7b6 wrote

I'm not disputing the facts at all; they speak for themselves in being painfully obvious. I'm disputing the proposed fixes coming from a very unqualified source.

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Trajikbpm t1_j8nhq2n wrote

I mean what have Vermonters done to fix it other than turn the other cheek or yell about it while the state rots into the ground?

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joeydokes t1_j8nptz6 wrote

Can't speak to whether 'turning the other cheek' or just ranting is the only thing that's been done, or not. I do know that there's no lack of advocates trying to effect positive change(s), but its not possible to escape undeniable truths.

One being that there aren't too many solutions to fundamentally rural problems; which about 3/4's of the State is. Fortunately, our rural parts benefit (trickle-down) from tourism in ways that rural villes and hamlets in places from OH to VA .... don't. Those places now look like ghost towns.

We are a tourist state that attracts 30M people from Boston to Baltimore. Sure, we have a few industries, but even relaxing regs would not make Vermont competitive with elsewhere. We need industry that we can build from the ground up.

We do K-12 OK, but >50% kids don't stay past HS; because growing up rural can be boring and there's too little opportunity. So our edu taxes make places elsewhere more literate. We're graying out, and the new blood replacing it is bringing in new values and new money; making life even more expensive.

I don't have any solutions, but know any proposed will be a tough pill to swallow and invite the inevitable backlash, no different than what's happening with the VSC/VSU transition.

What I do know, for sure, is that fixing wealth inequality, employer tied for-profit healthcare, .... the big killers of our social safety net .... would go a long way to remedying many of the issues we're facing.

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