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Fuck_You_Downvote t1_izehax8 wrote

Reply to comment by irdonut2 in New York’s ‘zombie’ office towers teeter as interest rates rise by rootbeer_racinette 

Some obsolete office buildings may be converted to residential, which, in theory, would help to ease New York City’s chronic shortage of housing. But that is easier said than done, say many experts. It would require zoning changes. Even then, many office buildings may not be suitable candidates for residential conversions — either because their floor plates are too large, their elevators are wrongly situated, their windows do not open or their neighbourhoods are unappealing.
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drpvn t1_izelugi wrote

All of that makes perfect sense except “their neighborhoods are unappealing.” Having a hard time imagining what neighborhoods those would be.

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Tokyocheesesteak t1_izexh4e wrote

Then the obvious solution is to make such neighborhoods appealing. Before the 2000s, the Financial District was also considered absolutely unappealing for residential uses, and now tens of thousands of people live there. In great part, the transition was achieved via office building conversions, streetscape improvements, and introduction of new resident-friendly retail. Essentials such as a massive volume of public transit and plenty of conversion-friendly office buildings were already there.

As such, there is no reason this cannot happen around, say, the Penn Station. I know, the area is a dump, but in the 1990s, the Financial District was also considered a dump, at least in the off-work hours. Otherwise, the Penn Station area also already boasts key essentials such as some of the nation's best mass transit service as well as ample conversion-ready office buildings, particularly of the prewar vintage (due to considerations such as smaller floor plate sizes, operable windows, and generally more attractive architecture, as well as frequently outdated tech capabilities, prewar buildings tend to make for better residential conversion candidates than their counterparts).

Similar conditions exist elsewhere throughout Lower and Mid-Manhattan, as well as elsewhere in the boroughs, and while it will take a lot of work (including in complicated fields such as education provision and homeless management), if a neighborhood's only drawback is that it's "unappealing," the solution is generally rather simple as compared to, say, a lack of subway service.

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atari_Pro t1_izf8lym wrote

This is already happening. There’s literally a Whole Foods in Manhattan West. Not such a dump like it was just a few years ago.

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drpvn t1_izfc159 wrote

Hudson Yards is kind of its own thing. Wasn’t so much that it was a “dump” before—there was nothing there at all.

I’m not a Hudson Yards fan generally but I’m glad it’s there. 10 years ago I never would have imagined the idea of a pleasant stroll down 34th over to shop at a Whole Foods a couple blocks from a tony waterfront.

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Tokyocheesesteak t1_izfj6lo wrote

One of the things that makes neighborhoods great is their adjacency to other great, or at least functional, neighborhoods. People may think what they will about Hudson Yards, but, if nothing else, it is hard to deny that it is a functional, if controversial, urban neighborhood, which replaced a whole lot of nothing (neighborhood-wise) and thus vastly improved the appeal of the adjacent Penn Station and Garment District areas.

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drpvn t1_izfp9wz wrote

I think that’s largely true, but there is another side unfortunately. Which is a lot of the homeless and drug scene that used to exist out there has been pushed inward, basically because police and private security won’t tolerate it happening in the new fanciness of Hudson Yards. Buses, too—last ten years, a lot of “commuter buses” that used to stop on the west side have moved in east of 8th avenue, which is insane given the congestion already in that area.

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drpvn t1_izeylns wrote

It’s not really a problem that needs “solving.” People already would live in Times Square and pay a lot of money to do it. And the more people who did it, the more who would follow.

The real problems are all the other ones listed in the quote above.

I should add I live between Penn Station and Times Square and yes, the transportation is phenomenal. You live blocks from trains that can take you directly downtown, to either side of uptown, and to three other Boroughs. You can get out of the city quickly through the Lincoln Tunnel, and you have quick access to the West Side Highway. If you’re forced to go to Long Island, it’s a straight shot across town to the Midtown Tunnel. If you’re healthy enough, you can walk to anywhere in Manhattan. You can take a short walk to the Theater District or to MSG. There are some things that aren’t great but mobility is not one of them.

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Tokyocheesesteak t1_izf2ijz wrote

While, as you said, the Penn Station area is quite livable as it is, I think it's universally agreeable that the area still has room for some serious streetscape improvements, among many other things

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drpvn t1_izf2vuj wrote

Definitely, beginning with the problem of hardcore drug use and street dealing.

Is there such a thing as a Tokyo Cheesesteak?

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Tokyocheesesteak t1_izfidqe wrote

I'm pretty sure there is now, though I don't think there was one, at least not to my knowledge, in '09, when I lived in Tokyo and wanted a cheesesteak.

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HeyMySock t1_izg6u61 wrote

I work just a block away from Penn Station and since the Hudson Yards have gone up, we've seen 2 apartment buildings go up within eyesight of our building. Things are improving around here.

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IllegibleLedger t1_izf5ge6 wrote

I see you always on on the crime posts and wondered what the reactionary vibe was but you living between Penn Station and Times Square totally clicks. I would love to see an influx of new residents to that area and how it would affect everything

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drpvn t1_izf5nh2 wrote

Ha, yeah, the area does bring out my inner Bronson.

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Burymeincalamine t1_izgd1g3 wrote

There is no reason to convert the buildings near Penn station into apartments…you should keep the huge office buildings close to mass transit centers and convert buildings in more isolated areas into residential housing

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Tokyocheesesteak t1_izgeyyn wrote

Many of the buildings in the area, particularly smaller, schlocky postwar office buildings, need to be torn down and redeveloped; however, the area also boasts a great number of magnificent prewar high-rise buildings, particularly around the Garment District, which ought to be preserved and protected. As many of these are obsolete as office buildings, or at least would be difficult, and some. Early impossible, to retrofit to a level where they can compete with new office buildings, they are better off retrofitted as apartments.

The new towers would revive the area's office stock while the prewar renovations would create thousands of new apartments, transforming the Penn Station area and the Garment District into a vibrant, mixed-use, centrally located, round-the-clock neighborhood with excellent transit service and close proximity to central Midtown, the waterfront, and Lower Manhattan.

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Burymeincalamine t1_izgps0v wrote

From an urban planning perspective, you should build office towers close to mass transit hubs (which would also lower housing needs and congestion within the city) and convert the near-empty older office buildings (or their plots) that are further away for residential use

New office space gets snapped up quickly. Banks, consulting, and law firms are pretty much back in the office full time and the towers in Hudson yards are full every day. Not sure where this sub gets their info that offices are dead. Old crusty offices, sure, but prime space gets leased before the buildings are even finished

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Tokyocheesesteak t1_izgrhua wrote

Not sure where you got the idea that I think that new office buildings are dead (unless I misread your post). If anything, my post supports your take in a sense that it it advocates for construction of new office buildings around Penn Station and conversion of old ones into residences.

Having said that, the area can definitely use new residential construction, as well. Ita not like living within a direct train ride of anywhere in Manhattan and literally all of the metropolitan region is not a highly desirable amenity.

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TheAJx t1_izg4i0u wrote

The development of the Financial District happened organically. Residential space opened up, people moved downtown, then restaurants opened, then retail and nightlife, and it created a virtuous cycle.

There is no reason why people wouldn't move to the Penn Station area. The reason people don't live there now is because there is nowhere to live.

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pddkr1 t1_izfthtm wrote

This was a really informative write up! Thank you!

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fapplesauc3 t1_izeny5p wrote

Times Square

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drpvn t1_izeq8oa wrote

Plenty of people would be willing to live in Times Square and pay plenty for it.

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whateverisok t1_izfai98 wrote

I live right in the middle of Times Square and Central Park, and a few blocks away from Radio City & Rockefeller, so I will say the tourists, commuters, and people selling stuff can take up all the walking space, but they're easily manageable and very patchy. 44St to 49th St is very dense, but once you're at 50th Street, it's open sidewalks.

The only thing about living in the area is all the restaurants around the corner are more expensive.

But transportation is amazing. So many subway lines run through there, straight shot to Central Park or to any of the other major train stations, and a lot of major events are held in those areas.

Easy access to free or heavily discounted Broadway shows

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noahsilv t1_izgj1gd wrote

Living in midtown would be horrible.

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drpvn t1_izgkk3d wrote

It has downsides but there are a lot of things that are great.

But the main point is that it’s idiotic to think that office buildings in that area aren’t suitable for residential conversion because in your opinion the “neighborhood is unappealing.”

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nim_opet t1_izfbvsc wrote

Many office buildings were turned into apartments after 2008 in financial district, I lived in two former AIG/multi office ones

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TheAJx t1_izewc99 wrote

Would it be that bad to convert a bunch of offices into dorms style residences with shared bathrooms, kitchens etc? These aren't ideal living conditions, but IMO it would accomplish a lot on the housing front - it would offer young people fresh out of college/high school the opportunity to live in New York at relatively low rent, reduce the strain on housing for older people.

Because of our inability to build new housing in this city, 25 year olds crowding in 4 at a time into 2 bedroom apartments is really taking a toll on affordability for older people that might want more space, want to grow families, have families, etc.

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CensorshipIsTheDevil t1_izex4w5 wrote

Would need a change in building code. There has to be an egress in each room, meaning a window in most cases. That won't happen fast enough, if at all.

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Pool_Shark t1_izfp4n3 wrote

Maybe the we work guy can finally get we live back going

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lickedTators t1_izepngk wrote

Turn them into weed hydroponics farms.

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anonyngineer t1_izfvlqa wrote

There are hundreds of millions of square feet of empty warehouses and suburban stores where that could be done.

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AlphaNoodlz t1_izihiri wrote

This. I’ve worked in construction and it comes down to the fact none of the office building structures have the required egress clearances for emergency exits, they don’t have proper heating, plumbing, or electrical equipment to serve the demands of residential needs. They often don’t have the required window and lighting access, and even if you just took the floor plan “as-built” the layouts would be wonky at best. It’s an impossible solution, frankly. You’re better off converting a factory wearhouse to apartments. Office buildings make awful residential spaces, not inherently on purpose we have just shaved down to the bare minimum in terms of occupational requirements which fall well, well below the demands of residential requirements.

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Street-Ad-6236 t1_izg6x3v wrote

100% correct.. I'm in local union 157 carpenters NYC and commercial building vs residential building are build different stalraight from the frame. Which commercial is erected from steel I beams.

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callmesnake13 t1_izhtrpr wrote

Weird that it doesn’t mention bathrooms. It’s super expensive to adjust/add toilets.

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wushuhimexx t1_izi1zdu wrote

I’ve lived in apartments that were converted from office buildings before, very mid experience. My room had a sliding glass door that led to the kitchen and no windows. Super weird and depressing layout.

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thisisntmineIfoundit t1_izf9tgj wrote

There are lots of people looking for places to live that don’t give a shit about those issues. As long as the buildings can be made safe to live in, the mayors office needs to put any zoning issues to the front of their docket.

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Robertm922 t1_izimlpz wrote

That’s how my former company was able to buy a building in the Financial District. It wasn’t suited to turn into apartments, so we got a great deal on it.

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