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breckenridgeback t1_j1vg8yr wrote

Well, one, not everything can be represented by RGB. The RGB color gamut (the colors you can produce by mixing pure red, green, and blue) does not even close to cover all possible colors. There are many colors, particularly the richer shades of teal, green, and greenish-blue, that can't be displayed that way. More generally, no finite set of primary colors can produce every chromaticity (combination of hue, which is what 'type' of color it is, and saturation, which is how intensely colored). Such a finite set would produce some straight-sided polygon in the space of possible colors, which can't represent the smoothly curved available space (and, in practice, such a set would also require maximally saturated colors, which real dyes and the like don't produce).

For two, since different purposes use different mixes of pigments, the spaces each thing can cover vary. Your printer colors, for example, don't align with the colors your monitor can produce, because printers are using subtractive primaries (which absorb light) rather than glowing colors in the monitor (which add light). One common color space for printers is CMYK (for cyan, magenta, yellow, and key [i.e., black, used to darken colors]), and you can see that CMYK and sRGB have different available colors.

And for three, different monitors and other forms of display show things differently. If you want to be able to design a shirt on your computer, then reproduce it in fabric dyes, you need to understand the relationship between those two color systems.


Which brings us to pantone. Pantones don't actually represent any specific mix of pigments, like RGB or CMYK. Instead, they represent an abstract idea of a color that can be consistently represented across different methods of displaying one. Each pantone has representations in RGB or CMYK or whatever else, provided that the color it represents is inside their gamuts, but the pantone is independent of those specific representations.

It's kind of like the idea of the number two existing separately from the symbol 2 (used to write it in Arabic numerals) or the symbol 二 (the Chinese character for this number), or tally marks like ||, or the spelling t-w-o. These are all representations, appropriate to specific situations, of the abstract idea of the number two.

In practice, using pantones lets you design "in pantone", and then implement that design across a wide range of possible materials and means of producing color. Each pantone can be handled consistently, and then implemented in whatever means of producing color support that pantone in their gamuts, so that purple on your screen and purple on a printed page and purple on a shirt all look exactly the same.


EDIT: Hello, /r/all. Before you feel super smart and go "um a 5 year old wouldn't understand that" you should read the sidebar:

> LI5 means friendly, simplified and layperson-accessible explanations - not responses aimed at literal five-year-olds.

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dmazzoni t1_j1vj670 wrote

How does a graphic designer work with colors in Photoshop, knowing that many colors can't be accurately represented in RGB on their computer monitor?

Would you look at Pantone swatches to see what the "real" color will look like, then look at the Photoshop version and imagine what the final result will look like with the real Pantone color? Basically is it mostly in your mind and your ability to imagine what the abstract digital art would look like when finally realized?

Or do you use software to try to model the resulting material and render it under different lighting conditions?

Or do you print or order samples of the target media in the correct colors in order to see what it will look like and adjust?

Or something else entirely?

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JoCoMoBo t1_j1vowex wrote

>Would you look at Pantone swatches to see what the "real" color will look like, then look at the Photoshop version and imagine what the final result will look like with the real Pantone color?

This, and spending a lot of time colour calibrating the monitor to actual colours. Apple monitors and lcd screens were great as they could be colour calibrated easily.

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DiscoveryOV t1_j1wgcm8 wrote

I believe they also generally just came calibrated from the factory, no?

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C47man t1_j1zvs2z wrote

>I believe they also generally just came calibrated from the factory, no?

Any serious artist using a computer monitor will calibrate it, normally using a probe and some specialized software that works with it. There's a few different brands out there. The cheaper end is iirc around 150-250 USD, like the Spyder

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ocelot08 t1_j1w29xw wrote

Basically all of the above/whatever you have access to.

For production runs, ordering proofs of your work is very important before they run too many. You can make adjustments in a lot of different ways. But pantone is REALLY helpful so you and the printers have the same reference point for a color (theoretically).

I love this stuff, if you have any questions I'll ramble on about print production.

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Ownzies t1_j1x8hte wrote

What do you do for work, if it is related to this?

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ocelot08 t1_j1xd12j wrote

Graphic designer with experience with print and print production

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Wanderslost t1_j20dwpj wrote

Is it possible to get 12 color wheels of Pantone colors that mimic specifice color spaces, such as traditional RBY, RGB, CMKY and even artistically pleasant (but theoretically unsound) spectrums?

I would prefer wheels that have different saturation in rings. I have spent a lot of time fiddling with photoshopping and pdfs of a Pantone swatch book. It has been interesting, but I have to believe this work has been done before.

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ocelot08 t1_j20gs91 wrote

Lmk if I didn't understand your idea right, but based on my understanding of what you're proposing:

The issue with color matching is really the physical world. Mixing paints and printers aren't perfect but also leds and screen technologies are all a little different. Like one batch of leds may be a little more red, another a little more blue, so even if the computer gives the led the same color data, it will look different in the physical world.

But I think your idea could work, but you would need to control every stage of production and keep everything calibrated together:

  • all designers computers in the same color space
  • all monitors calibrated the same
  • all printers calibrated the same (both in office and at in the print shop)
  • and if you are using any digital displays, ideally those are all calibrated as well.

I think it's possible, it's just a lot of work for not much reward. And note that like anything in the physical world, it all deteriorates over time from wear or sunlight or whatever, so all those things would need to be calibrated regularly and done together.

Instead, we usually try and keep our pantone chips away from light, sometimes need to rebuy a pack, and just eyeball color matching with printers. It's generally assumed everyone in the chain has access to a well kept at least basic set of pantone chips.

Digital is a mess and basically we just don't have control (although I don't think ive ever used Pantone for anything digital). We test on as many different devices we can, but there's always going to be some folks with really terrible phone screens or something.

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Wanderslost t1_j20vrrv wrote

Thank you for your time.

I manufacture acrylic dice. I have 3 introductory (pantone C) colors that I just picked out because I liked them. The essence of my problem is I would like to offer 3 sets of 12 colors based off of these original colors. But I don't know how to pick the future pantones, though I have the original codes.

For bonus points. I thought it would be interesting if each set of 12 colors used a different color theory. However, I would settle for just making the house standard the painter's color wheels (ryb).

Not much translation needs to happen here. I provide the Pantone number, and they do it. The final product just needs to make sense with the dice already made. My comments above about pdfs and such was just a description of my (failed) attempts to figure this out.

Thanks again!

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ocelot08 t1_j21buey wrote

Ah interesting. I mean it's not gonna be much help, but I would basically just create a color palette in some Adobe program and then match pantone swatches to it. As it sounds like you've seen, color theory can get really complicated.

A nice tool is Adobe color. It won't give you a set of 12 but it could make for some good starting points as they have a number or ways to use different colors and push and pull them together as a set.

Anyways, good luck!

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rabid_briefcase t1_j1wajxf wrote

> How does a graphic designer work with colors in Photoshop, knowing that many colors can't be accurately represented in RGB on their computer monitor?

First off, Photoshop itself has some tools. You can configure your color spaces while working. Photoshop will then highlight unprintable colors when they're out of gamut. It can also highlight colors that will exist in print but can't be displayed on your monitor.

Other than that, print shops use boxes and books full of printed color reference cards.

If you aren't color matching a reference system like Pantone but are instead trying to see exactly how the final print will look, shops will print out a bunch of their own reference cards and chips on the papers, cardstock, vinyl, polyester, or whatever it is they'll be printing on.

And it isn't enough to just have one and keep it forever. Papers fade and discolor, inks fade and discolor, so the colors can drift away in unacceptable ways after two or three years. Bigger print studios will budget a few thousand dollars each year to continuously update their reference colors.

Every blend ends up being slightly different. Printing a specific CYMK on one brand of cardstock will have different appearance than that same CYMK on a different brand of cardstock. Printing on glossy paper will look different from matte paper. Printing on paper versus printing on vinyl will look different. Each one will be similar, and some will be nearly identical, but visually each will still be different.

That's part of the appeal of Pantone, the print shop is supposed to account for it and fine tune for whatever inks, dyes, and media they're using so it produces a match. If someone is expecting P15-5519, but it happens that the specific paper happens to make the print a slightly greener turquoise, the shop is supposed to adjust the color mix so it matches the reference color instead of matching a specific CYMK blend. If this combination happens to need a little more black or a little less yellow, they'll adjust the CYMK to whatever it needs to be in order to visually produce the Pantone color P15-5519.

Getting the colors to match exactly is one of the reasons for proofs before a big print run, you want to verify with the customer that they're satisfied before running the full batch. It isn't just for issues like spelling and placement (although those are part of it), it's also to ensure the color is precisely what they expect on the various media used.

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dmazzoni t1_j1wbzqq wrote

Thanks, this is really fascinating.

Are you saying that a good print shop is calibrating their equipment so that it's producing colors that match Pantone in general?

Or are you saying that the graphic designer will send them the file to print and ask them to custom-match a few specific colors in the image to specific pantone shades, specific for that job?

If the latter, I'm assuming you'd pick just a couple of important shades.

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rabid_briefcase t1_j1wonqu wrote

It depends. Something like a corporate logo that it supposed to be exactly a specific reference color needs to match exactly. Something less precise like a family reunion banner would have more leeway. The clients, the job details, and the nature of the job tell a lot even without explicitly asking.

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Shotgun81 t1_j1ydqgr wrote

Man, when I was in art school and learned about how crazy specific and controlled corporate colors were it blew my mind.

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gridsandorchids t1_j1xh0di wrote

Print shops also typically have color definitions that apply to specific processes that you should follow for a job.

For example, dark blacks in print. In CMYK, where K is basically black, going 0/0/0/100 is not a very dark black. It needs other colors mixed in. But if you do too much, you can wind up with a black that's too richly mixed and won't dry properly, and wind up smearing and ruining your prints.

A print shop will typically have a specific CMYK mix you should use for the richest black without fucking things up, that looks something like 30/30/20/100. They will also often use something like 0/0/0/100 to define what is essentially an alpha layer for some other process layer like gloss or glitter or embossing. You provide a layer of the design where black is what gets embossed and white is what doesn't, for example.

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No-Barnacle2180 t1_j1x6ks5 wrote

"Getting the colors to match exactly is one of the reasons for proofs before a big print run, "

Say, I went online and ordered printing on tshirts with image I creared in Photoshop. The Printers sent me a pdf proof via email. Now you have an image I created in Photoshop being printed on textile with a pdf proof. Impossible to know what the actual colour will be on the physical tshirt, no?

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strawhatArlong t1_j1xj5ap wrote

Yep, this is a common problem. If you ever create a t-shirt in Photoshop and send it to a t-shirt company for printing, they'll usually provide a list of guidelines to follow to minimize the risk of this happening but a lot of non-designers won't always follow them.

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rabid_briefcase t1_j1xjlqn wrote

That is the kind of print job that rarely requires exact matching.

If you have actual need to get a match, you will need to use a reference system like Pantone. Think along the lines of a major corporate logo. It should have been a part of the bid.

For most tshirt orders you will need to trust the person working on the other end. Ask them for their thoughts and listen to their response. They spend all day, every day working with the materials and know how yours will look.

You won't get a perfect color match from the image, but you can check everything else. Tell them your concerns and ask them questions before you sign off. If they are hesitant about your design it is a big warning. If they are confident it will look nice, go for it.

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felis_flatus t1_j1w7948 wrote

I can’t speak for others, but I’ve found color calibrating my monitors to be a chore and not entirely accurate. So I just work in a CMYK color space in photoshop, Illustrator, and/or InDesign, get things roughly how I want, print a sample, adjust, print, etc, until the color is to my liking.

Different printers will also represent colors differently, so I either need to print on the same type I’ll eventually have the job printed off of, or understand how they treat the colors differently so I know roughly how it will change. That’s also a reason I keep multiple printers around.

Lastly, if I’m designing for screen only, I’ll just use an RGB color space and check it on multiple devices/monitors to ensure it looks good everywhere. That often means compromising on the exact color, but the goal is to make something pleasing for as many use cases as possible.

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strawhatArlong t1_j1xj81u wrote

I work with two monitors from two different companies (my regular computer monitor and a Wacom drawing tablet). Color calibration is such a nightmare.

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felis_flatus t1_j1xxw6p wrote

It really is, which is why I gave up on it. And with so many new types of screen technologies, it’s only gotten worse. Oh well

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breckenridgeback t1_j1vkkgu wrote

I don't know the answers to these questions. I'm not a professional graphic designer. I do know that Photoshop and other tools support working in different color spaces, wider than those that can be displayed on the web (which uses sRGB as a standard, covering only about a third of human color vision). Some very high-quality monitors support a very wide gamut of colors, and I would assume (but don't know) that those are used for exceptionally high-fidelity graphic design work.

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strawhatArlong t1_j1xiv12 wrote

I do the first and last one usually. If the project is given the time and resources that it needs, you'll usually order lots of test prints and make corrections as needed. But it can be a huge pain in the ass.

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joelluber t1_j1xzbik wrote

In addition to what everyone else has said,

>Or do you print . . . in order to see what it will look like and adjust?

Many printing/publishing companies have special laser or inkjet printers that have been specially calibrated using a standard called SWOP (Specification for Web Offset Publications; not "Web" here refers to web press printing not the world wide web) to closely mimick what something will look like on the industrial scale printing presses. In the early days of my publishing career, I worked on paper page proofs made by a normal mediocre quality office printer and also got a stack of high quality SWOP proofs just of the art.

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twohusknight t1_j1vm4jm wrote

The ability of different monitors to display the same thing in RGB as might be printed in CMYK is down to the ICC profile, not Pantone. PMS just provides the color references, it is the job of the printer company, display manufacturer, etc, to ensure appropriate mapping of the gamuts.

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TotallyRealDev t1_j1vwh66 wrote

But the person working on the colours needs a reference or they are just sending bad data to the manufacturers

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kingdead42 t1_j1w4fsf wrote

That's why you can buy the giant reference books from Pantone. They contain physical cards with color swatches on them and they make sure that every single color swatch they produce labeled "Pantone color <x>" matches every other "Pantone color <x>" in the world.

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Lurker_81 t1_j1w722n wrote

Linus Tech Tips YouTube channel has a couple of great videos on the topic of Pantone colour chips and their digital equivalents (including the latest controversy with Abobe suite)

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dmazzoni t1_j1vjkgf wrote

Also, another question: what is your opinion on Freetone and http://adaptstudio.ca/ocs/ and other potential alternatives to Pantone?

Are they inferior in any significant way, or is it purely a question of Pantone's ubiquity and the difficulty of switching?

How much time/effort would it take to switch an existing project from Pantone to some other system?

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someone76543 t1_j1vx1x5 wrote

Having a widely supported standard is important.

Pantone is that standard, they have basically a monopoly on professional colour definitions. Everyone competent who is using colour professionally will understand a Pantone colour. Designers have lots of existing designs using Pantone colours. Manufacturers know how to produce all kinds of plastics, fabrics, paints, or anything else, to whatever Pantone colour you want.

Introducing a new standard would be very hard. All designs would need updating. All manufacturers would have to invest extra money in supporting it. Someone will have to produce the definitive colour samples that define the colours, and designers and manufacturers would have to buy them.

And there is little incentive for anyone to invest that time and money. The designers will still need Pantone to deal with the vast majority of manufacturers. The manufacturers will still need Pantone to deal with the vast majority of designers. It's extra cost for no benefit.

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RandomNumsandLetters t1_j1w78bf wrote

No benefit except you don't have to pay for pantone...?

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dravik t1_j1wdkn3 wrote

This gets into a cost benefit question. Pantone air carefully calibrate their prices to keep them just below where it's worthwhile to switch.

Eventually they will get too greedy, but that may take decades.

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dmazzoni t1_j1y3emh wrote

Don't you think that the current kerfuffle with Adobe shows they erred a bit on the greedy side?

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dravik t1_j1yqgk4 wrote

Are they charging more than it costs to change? I don't think so. I think the industry will complain, but they will pay because it's easier, faster, and cheaper.

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someone76543 t1_j1xdzoh wrote

Pantone is used for communication between different people. If you're not communicating with someone else, then you do you and use whatever colours you like.

Usually it is for communication between a designer and a manufacturer. The designer chooses a Pantone colour, and the manufacturer makes the thing be exactly that Pantone colour.

The designer and manufacturer are usually different companies, often in different countries.

So if you are a manufacturer, you DO have to keep paying for Pantone because that is what most of your customers will be using. And if you stop accepting designs that use Pantone colours, or if you just get the Pantone colours wrong, then the customers will go to a different manufacturer.

If you are a designer, you DO have to keep paying for Pantone because that is what most of your manufacturers will be using. Unless you have the luxury of only selecting manufacturers that support <alternate colour system>, but in that case either:

  1. you're a huge company, that can dictate standards to their supplier. Huge companies will have a huge existing library of designs, and the cost of switching will likely dwarf the cost of Pantone. OR
  2. you're a tiny hobbyist or small business. Hobbyists & small businesses who care enough to use ANY colour system are a niche market. So most manufacturers aren't going to implement a whole separate colour system just for "hobbyists & small businesses who care about exact colours but can't or won't pay for Pantone". Those people don't have much money to spend getting things manufactured - if they had lots of money they could buy Pantone.

The only way you can stop paying for Pantone is AFTER the whole industry starts supporting the new colour system. And for the reasons listed above, that is unlikely to happen.

So any competing colour system is doomed.

It's a classic chicken/egg problem.

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breckenridgeback t1_j1vksnc wrote

I don't know the answer to these questions, either. My best guess to the last one is "substantial but not totally prohibitive", but I don't know.

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brainwave4802 t1_j1wl8e3 wrote

Is there a reason we cant just define such "abstract colours" as coordinates in one of the CIE colour spaces that encompasses human vision? Since this would represent all "useful" colours and other colour spaces such as sRGB are subsets of this. Essentially im asking if all pantone colours can be mapped to CIEXYZ or CIELAB coordinates, and if so doesnt it make pantone redundant?

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breckenridgeback t1_j20cpqg wrote

It does in terms of representing the colors humans can see, but you still need to be able to produce those colors in a range of different media.

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PumiceT t1_j1w63az wrote

Also keep in mind that there are fluorescent and metallic inks that can’t be represented by either RGB or CMYK. You kinda just have to imagine and hope for the best with some spot colors.

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Suthabean t1_j1wqtmd wrote

I don't know about any of this, but I despise the word "Pantone".

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breckenridgeback t1_j20clfo wrote

It's just pan- (Greek for "all" or "everywhere") + tone (as in, shade of color). Seems like a good name for a universal color-matching system.

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Suthabean t1_j20d0bc wrote

Sounds like some shitty shampoo, lets be honest prof.

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kzgrey t1_j1yaevs wrote

Every color that a standard human can perceive can be represented by RGB. These are the colors our eyes see. RGB on an electronic display screen is different from how something appears on paper because RGB represents both color and magnitude on a computer screen which is emitting light while RGB in paint pigments is not additive -- it gets darker with each pigment added. This is why red and green on a computer screen produce yellow but red and green paint will produce a crappy shade of brown. Light emission is different from light reflectance. Pantone is just a methodology for simulating how things on the screen will appear in print. There's other crazy stuff happening in our heads when it comes to color. The blue/gold dress is a good example -- the colors around an object influence what color we perceive things as.

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breckenridgeback t1_j20chmx wrote

> These are the colors our eyes see.

No, they aren't.

The three cones in your eyes respond most strongly to deep blue-violet, green, and yellow-green. But they see a distribution of colors around those peaks.

What you're getting at here is the idea that color is about tristimulus values, not the spectral power distribution. And that's true, at least under the assumption of humans with normal color vision.

But red, green, and blue light are not the tristimulus values, and don't cover all possible stimulus values that can be produced by a spectral distribution.

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Seaniard t1_j1wcsrh wrote

You know some very smart five year olds.

That being said, this is a very helpful explanation.

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turnedonbyadime t1_j1w18m9 wrote

A five year old would not understand this.

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DonutCola t1_j1w4nbx wrote

“Pantone is a company that tries to make sure that purple markers are the same color as purple crayons. They do other stuff too like t shirts, dresses, or even toys. That way everything matches and looks pretty”. There you go.

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