FrustratingMangooose t1_irx1ey6 wrote on October 11, 2022 at 5:55 PM

I understand your views, but dissecting some of your comments might make it easier to understand other people’s experiences.

I think you are discrediting the author’s efforts in representing our community by saying they are transphobic. Internalized transphobia is an issue for anyone, including trans people, and seeing how the author has worked in the NHS Gender Identity Development Service, I imagine she has spoken to many, many transgender folks that experience internalized transphobia. The dialogue and story might seem contrived in some chapters, but the story is collectively many trans people’s story, so to say that it does not serve the plot is strange. Trans people can be transphobic, similar to homosexuals being homophobic.

> The entire book [...] implies that trans people want to be their gender rather than already being it.

I mean, if this were true, then the need to transition would be unnecessary. If you have not transitioned (medically, socially, etc.), then how are you already the opposite gender? Because you feel like it? It does not work like that. Quite the contrary, the reason why most trans people transition is because they are not already the gender to which they feel attached. Is it everyone’s story? No, but as a trans person, I have never considered myself the opposite gender. I have always said I felt like the opposite gender, which was the propellent for transitioning. However, while I agree that the wording “I am not who you think I am” is bizarre, it makes sense. Being trans is a large part of many people’s identity, and in a way, people not knowing might feel like they do not know who you are as a person. Your journey and the obstacles you have gone through. Also, you said he was trying to “get to fourth base,” meaning sex, no? Yes, the wording could be better, but within the context of the story makes sense. Alicia only knew him as Leo, and if Leo wanted to have sex with Alicia, then it makes sense that Leo would say he was not born Leo. It might be okay to do this with one-night stands, but in a relationship, it hurts more not telling your partner that you are transgender/sexual than not saying anything. I agree that the wording is acrid (occasionally) but transphobic, no. I suppose it is more progressive using colorful language, but the last part seems emotionally driven if trans people have never said, “I was born a boy” and “I used to be [gender].” I say that all the time. It’s simple, straightforward, and better for me. Everyone has a different way of explaining they are transgender.

> [...] If it wasn’t painfully obvious that the book was written by a cis person.

What does that even mean? Lol. Again, the phraseology might not be great, but why are you discrediting the author and calling her transphobic? The language is not as harmful as you make it seem, and I see no issue with people bringing personal items from home to school. Is it dumb? Yes, of course, but these are adolescents who do dumb stuff, so not far-fetched. Also, if you are going to mention that she was using a “dress-up box,” at least mention that she also says it was no longer dress-up. It was for real.

I think you should rewrite this review with less emotionally-driven thoughts because some things are subjective to each trans person, and you make it abundantly clear throughout your review that you were expecting this story to tightly fit your experience as a trans person, which is wrong to justify attacking the author for not catering to your experience. Even if that is not what you were trying to convey, you are pushing, twisting, and tugging on this book when the author did it remarkably. The only point I can agree with is that the author has some dubious wording, but I still understood that while I might experience or word things differently as the book suggests, some people do, and you have to realize that, even if it sounds cliché and stupid.

I think you need to give the author the benefit of the doubt. We need to stop saying everyone is transphobic without justifiable reasons. While I would have preferred a trans person to write a story like this, I appreciate that a ciswoman tried her best to not only understand our struggle but equally try to represent it. Keyword: try. I am not saying she did anything award-winning, but the effort shows, and it was a step in the right direction.

bookdealmaybe t1_irx3tf5 wrote on October 11, 2022 at 6:10 PM

Op never called the author transphobic. OP said there was transphobia in the book. She never attributed blame or malice to the author, in fact she specifically said that it probably wasn't malicious. What's the harm in talking about how Ms. Williamson got it wrong as a cis author so that cis authors can do better?

FrustratingMangooose t1_irx5aeg wrote on October 11, 2022 at 6:20 PM

The OP said

> Since Leo begins his transition before the start of the book, Kate always refers to him properly, but it is clear that the character has a lot of internalized transphobia that doesn’t serve the plot and was mostly likely a project of the author’s own hidden transphobia.

You cannot call the author transphobic and say the book was not malicious. That is an incongruency, but yes, the author was wrong. Lol. We can give constructive criticism without calling someone transphobic, but I know a lot of people like to use it loosely. Do what you will.

bookdealmaybe t1_irx5vwo wrote on October 11, 2022 at 6:24 PM

I have transphobia inside me (internalized). Am I transphobic? No. Because despite my internalized transphobia, I try to get over the biases that I grew up with. Which... funnily enough, is exactly what you said the author is doing. Do I believe Ms. Wiliamson has some transphobic thoughts? Maybe, I dunno. I don't know her that well. I do know that she's not Transphobic. Because she tries.

Also, you did not answer my question. What is the harm in pointing out the problematic parts of a book written by a cis author so that cis authors might do better?

FrustratingMangooose t1_irxau20 wrote on October 11, 2022 at 6:55 PM

Yeah, no. I will not be discussing whether it is transphobic because no matter what you say, yes, it is transphobic. It is harmful to you and harmful to others, and it solidifies the flawed hatred and fear towards trans people, only that you do it to yourself.

Anyway, if you are not going to quote when I have said that, then I have no reason to discuss it.

Also, there is nothing wrong with putting out issues with an author’s perspective, but 1) the OP did not accurately and cohesively explain themselves. 2) The OP merged their emotionally-driven thoughts with objectivity. They were blindsided that trans people can and do experience these issues, and I responded accordingly.

The author is not exempt from criticism, but there is a way you can criticize without saying they are transphobic. If the OP did not mean to call her transphobic, why add it? The OP can criticize the author, but you can tell that the OP was writing with emotions, and there was little objectivity in her comments that I found reasonable. Their experience as trans people does mean the author does not have the right to speak on a different one.

bookdealmaybe t1_irxci4r wrote on October 11, 2022 at 7:06 PM

I guess we're having a difference of opinion regarding what constitutes someone being 'transphobic', and I can appreciate that we view it differently. Judging by your definition (having transphobic feelings), I'd probably claim all cis people (and a good chunk of trans people) are transphobic, because I have never had a conversation with a cis person about gender identity where they haven't had some problematic view points (and yeah, I'm talking harmful to the trans community). Is it a generalization? Sure, but in my experience even the cis people who try don't really 'get it'. (Again, this is using YOUR definition of what transphobic is. In my definition, there are a lot less transphobic people, namely those who willingly and maliciously harm trans people).

I'm sorry, the OP has to write an academic purely unbiased dissertation on their feelings about the book on the same subreddit that currently has a top rated post on comparing characters to celebrities cause it feels cheap? It's Reddit. Every post you find will be laden with the OP's emotion on the topic.

Based on your definition (having transphobic feelings, problematic thoughts), the author IS transphobic. (Again, this isn't using my definition of the word, it's using yours). In which case, call a spade a spade. There are 100% problematic areas of the book. If you don't agree, fine, but please remember (as you yourself pointed out) your experiences are not universal. Maybe let people voice their opinions without calling them wrong for having those opinions.

FrustratingMangooose t1_irxl08t wrote on October 11, 2022 at 8:00 PM

I never defined transphobia, but OK. Assuming this is my definition, none of what you said made any sense.

Yes, people—including trans people—experience transphobia, which is why the author writing about how trans people can and do hold internalized beliefs from heteronormative expectations from society that consequently harm other trans individuals is perfectly reasonable.

The OP does not have to write academically, but the OP should be concise, cohesive, and a little more objective when writing such a review. The emotional writing caused difficulty in understanding the OP’s point. Are these issues with the book displaying a trans experience or issues with how the book represents your trans experience inaccurately? This post was more about how the author discreetly wrote with hidden transphobia, but the explanations and points are not there to support what the author was doing; at best, cherry-picked the author’s horrible wording, which I already agreed was acrid, but that is not transphobic. I can argue against that if I want to, and too many trans people use the word too universally that it has reduced meaning. The OP and I can disagree, and I am okay with that.

bookdealmaybe t1_irxnv1l wrote on October 11, 2022 at 8:18 PM

>Are these issues with the book displaying a trans experience or issues with how the book represents your trans experience inaccurately?

What's the point in writing a book from the point of view of a trans person if you don't care whether you're portraying the experience accurately? And, no, I don't mean accurately for specifically me.

Take the ending of the book (SPOILER ALERT)

Kate's friends want to do something nice for her to celebrate her coming out. She specifically asks her friends not to out her publicly, cause she's not ready yet. They take her to an anti-prom event where they didn't specifically invite people from her school, but an anti-prom event is just straight up gonna have people from the school. (Though that's not even the point. As you say, dumb kids do dumb things). People from her school come to the event that she specifically requested wasn't going to lead to her getting outted publicly. Surprisingly, it leads to her getting outed publicly. And... she has zero issues with it. She's not mad, she's not sad, she's not conflicted. It's fine.

Do me a favor: Give me any reason to believe that any other trans person who is outed publicly without their consent will not feel a negative emotion about getting outed publicly. I'll wait.

Nobody who knows two things about LGBT people as a whole will consider that a reasonable experience of LGBT kids lives, much less specifically trans. There's a reason Simon from Simon vs. The Homosexual Agenda was so afraid to get outed publicly. There's a reason lgbt people IRL are afraid to get outed publicly, and there's a reason Kate was afraid of getting outed publicly. But... it's fine? No issues whatsoever?

Please tell me how that's in any way representative of ANY trans person's experience.

FrustratingMangooose t1_irxvmy2 wrote on October 11, 2022 at 9:08 PM

I am going to need an excerpt of that because I reread from page 950 onward, and what you were saying and what I was reading gave different reactions; Kate was not okay, so even though she said she was “okay,” we as readers know she was not.

“I nod. But I’m not OK. This is too much too soon. I try to keep moving but my limbs feel heavy and clumsy.

  The next time I hear it. I spin around. A group of kids from the year below are standing in a semicircle, staring at me, their lips curled in disgust.

  ‘Tranny,’ one of them says.

  The others dissolve into giggles.

  ‘Yeah, are you like a drag queen?’ another asks.

  Leo appears as if from nowhere and cuts them off.

  ‘Piss off, why don’t you. If you can’t be cool then you may as well go to the other ball.’

  ‘Yeah,’ Essie chimes in. ‘If you’ve got a problem with anything you see, then you’re not wanted here.’

  ‘Well?’ Leo growls. ‘Got anything more to say?’

  The Year 9 kids look at one another before wandering off, throwing dirty glances over their shoulders.

  ‘Idiots,’ Essie mutters. ‘You OK?’

  ‘Fine,’ I say, although I’m shaking.

  ‘Thanks,’ I murmur to Leo, as the next song kicks in.

  He shrugs.”

“Is it always going to be like this?’ I ask.

  ‘For a while, yeah. But it’ll get better, I promise, it already has for me. And this comes from someone with a bit of experience.’

  I nod gratefully, relieved to find I’ve stopped trembling.”

None of that suggests that she was okay with the experience. She experienced a negative emotion unless you are speaking about something else.

I also do not think they outed her, but I can see how it seems like that. Truthfully, this pays homage to a realistic experience that most of us never have the ideal coming out story, and a lot of us are not comfortable with it, but she had friends that defended her, and although it was a lot for it, you can tell that she realized that she was not in danger. She was safe to be herself. This is a reasonable experience, and as a trans person, this was my experience too. I was afraid of coming out, even though my support system was strong. It takes courage and a little bit of a push to find yourself, and I think Kate needed that push to see that she can be herself.

bookdealmaybe t1_irylth0 wrote on October 12, 2022 at 12:23 AM

Hey! This finally showed up for me. Yeah, you and I are talking about two different things. You're talking about being 'okay' with transphobia. that's not what im talking about.

I'm talking about she's oddly okay with the fact she got outed, even though she was specifically worried about it. Yeah, the transphobia hurts, but she's not at all worried that the transphobes that just called her a slur might spread around the school? Even though she specifically said she wasn't comfy being outed?

FrustratingMangooose t1_iryr1m2 wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:03 AM

I think she might have been transferring. Although, I might be incorrect and would need to read the last chapter again.

However, since I am not sure about that, I will agree that it is odd, but not enough to where I feel that it does not represent the experience. What I will say is that the author never spoke about it in the last chapter, which would have done it some justification if there were some ramifications. If I put myself in Kate’s shoes, I probably would not be nearly upset. You cannot hide it forever in school, not unless you transition after graduating. I suppose you can transfer, but realistically, who can do that? Between having someone call her out in school versus an exclusive, small place where not everyone in her school was there, the second one sounds like the lesser of two evils. That does not mean I am defending it, though. Since I have to do guesswork that the author should have explained, this point is valid, and I agree with you.

FrustratingMangooose t1_irxwfdc wrote on October 11, 2022 at 9:13 PM

I apologize for the formatting; I ripped the excerpt from my ebook.

Anyway, I do not think there was any hidden transphobia behind that. Could there be an alternative to it? Yes, of course. A lot of trans individuals had worse experiences, but that does not mean experiences like Kate’s do not exist. I would argue her experience was normal and reasonable within this context.

bookdealmaybe t1_irxzd72 wrote on October 11, 2022 at 9:33 PM

I apologize, I don't see an excerpt at all.

I'm not talking about her being accepted. I'm talking about someone outing you (accidentally) with you specifically asking not to, and then being 'oh, whatever' about it. That's not a reasonable thing to assume any trans person is like. That is horrifying, but 'some trans person somewhere' might be cool with it so it's okay?

So, I maybe misunderstanding you (if so, I apologize), but I can't expect a cis author to write a trans character a way that is representative of many trans people, because they're writing the minority experience?

Why write from a trans perspective at all?

Brian Katcher wrote the first ever book I read that included trans people, Almost Perfect. (Not saying it was the first ever, just the first I read). He did an amazing job for the time he was writing in (I'd say save one sentence it still holds up p well). He didn't know everything a trans person experiences, so he wrote from the POV of a cishet character who gets to know a trans character. It worked so well because he made no promise to be representative of any trans person, and yet he STILL pulled it off well.

If I write a bipoc character (am white), you can bet the expectation is that I'm going to do whatever I can to do it well, or else BIPOC people will (understandably) have negative feelings about my book, and myself.

If you write from a Point of View that you do not share, you 100% have an expectation of doing it well. Miss Williamson did not do it well, which is more egregious considering she worked with trans kids. She had every chance to get it right, and it's still wrong.

Parts of it can be explained away as 'oh, maybe some trans kid somewhere may have dealt with it like this', but when 90% of the book has to be explained away because trans people can't relate to trans characters, maybe the problem's not on the trans peoples' side.

FrustratingMangooose t1_iry49oy wrote on October 11, 2022 at 10:08 PM

The thing is, what trans person has had an ideal coming-out story? Not many. How many trans people have come out, and people were okay with that? How many times do you see people calling out a trans individual? A lot. Kate’s experience—while different—still shows that this is an experience that many, many trans individuals experience. The reaction she has is reasonable within the context of that. It will not be the reaction everyone wants, but it is still reasonable. She said she was not okay to the readers, despite the dialogue suggesting otherwise. We knew she was not okay, and that is a reasonable reaction for a trans individual.

Since the excerpt was never sent, I recommend reading page ~945 until the chapter’s ending. She did not seem okay with her friends calling her out (if you want to call it that).

Yes, you cannot expect a cis author to be able to put themselves in our shoes and walk in them. They might be able to put themselves in that perspective, but their feet do not fit, so they cannot walk in them.

Also, I already said I would have preferred a trans author because of that, but I recognize the efforts, and I do not think she was writing with hidden transphobia. I specifically mention hidden transphobia because the OP made it seem as if the author had an ulterior motive. She was writing with hidden transphobia but was not malicious. Does that make sense to you? How can you not be malicious if you are transphobic? You hiding it means nothing. That is why I say the author was not transphobic, and she wrote the book well. No one has to agree with me, but the OP had some terrible takes.

And yes, I would have equally high expectations if you wrote about my Black experience, but if know you are white and writing from my experience, then I cannot have those expectations cloud how I read your book. If you write something that is not of the Black experience, then yes, I will call you. I can call you out for it without calling you a racist; similarly, if someone wrote about my trans experience poorly, I will call them out. I can do it without calling them transphobic.

No matter what, an author who has lived the experience will always write better. We know this, but allowing others outside of the community to help represent us is equally okay—as long as it does not harm us and paint us as horrible individuals. I do not think the author did that. If I felt that the author wrote us horribly, I would agree with you, but I do not see how the author was doing anything the OP suggested.

bookdealmaybe t1_iry8yq9 wrote on October 11, 2022 at 10:44 PM

>Since the excerpt was never sent, I recommend reading page ~945 until the chapter’s ending. She did not seem okay with her friends calling her out (if you want to call it that).

I will concede this point on the virtue that I lost my copy a few months ago, and cannot look it up. It's possible (if not probable) I may have missed or misremembered something.

>Yes, you cannot expect a cis author to be able to put themselves in our shoes and walk in them. They might be able to put themselves in that perspective, but their feet do not fit, so they cannot walk in them.

I'm not expecting them to be perfect. I'm expecting them to be 'close enough'. The Art of Being Normal got a lot wrong. That's not close enough by any stretch of the imagination. If you're choosing to write from a trans person's perspective, I'm gonna take it as you saying 'Hey, I know enough about what I'm talking about to do this justice'.

If you fail at it, you might as well be writing the story for clout for the good you do.

>I specifically mention hidden transphobia because the OP made it seem as if the author had an ulterior motive.

This (and the next paragraph) I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on. I do not believe having transphobic thoughts or biases innately make people transphobic. I think it makes them flawed, definitely room to grow in trans issues, but not innately a bad person.

>No matter what, an author who has lived the experience will always write better. We know this, but allowing others outside of the community to help represent us is equally okay—as long as it does not harm us and paint us as horrible individuals. I do not think the author did that. If I felt that the author wrote us horribly, I would agree with you, but I do not see how the author was doing anything the OP suggested.

I think we're in agreement that Miss Williamson wrote us horribly. I also agree she did not paint us as horrible individuals. I do, however, think she's harmed us. Idk what version you got of the book, but when I bought it a few years back, the crosswalk on the cover was the trans pride flag. They've changed it to the gay pride flag. That seems like a fix to a problem nobody had.

I think Kate asking Leo if he was 'in disguise' when she meant stealth (while something a kid who doesn't know any better might say) does harm us, cause as OP suggested, it makes it seem like we aren't really our gender. We're just playing pretend. I'm not gonna bring up the dress-up box, cause you do have a valid point with it no longer being a dress-up box. Hell, I even used to call my stash of clothes my dress-up clothes.

I think the impression that a trans girl going out in public dressed instantly passing and being beautiful reinforces inaccurate expectations of trans women. Sure, some trans girls (especially if they start young) can have it that easy, but after puberty? Less likely. Still not perfect.

Sorry, but I can't read a book where both trans characters (even though one just started coming out) passing with very little resistance or clocking as a good representation of trans people. At best, it feels like you wanted to write a book about being trans without any of the struggles with being trans.

You can claim that someone somewhere had it that easy, but it's just phoning it in imo.

FrustratingMangooose t1_iryrr49 wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:09 AM

> The Art of Being Normal got a lot wrong.

After reading the information you have provided, I will say the author could have done better as an author and trans ally, yes.

> I do not believe having transphobic thoughts or biases innately makes people transphobic.

As much as I hate using Google definitions, Google defines transphobia as “dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.” If you do this to yourself, you are, by definition, transphobic. The fact that you do it to yourself and you do not find it transphobic would be a marker of transphobia. “These are thoughts, so I can’t be transphobic, right?” If the thoughts are causing you discomfort with your trans identity due to heteronormative expectations from society, then yes, that is transphobic. I agree that it does not make anyone a nasty person, but if it is anything but transphobia, why call it internalized transphobia? Internalized transphobia does not only mean that you experience transphobia in yourself; it can also mean that you project those beliefs onto others subconsciously, which does become externalized transphobia if you do not address it.

> I do, however, think she’s harmed us.

Okay, I agree that she has harmed the community, but I still have my doubts as to how harmful they are to us. I do not remember any book with the Pride flag, but I searched for it, and I will agree that it would be more appropriate to have our flag, and it does misrepresent us if you use the Pride flag, and I cannot fathom any reason why they would change it. There is no defending that kind of misrepresentation since it takes zero effort to use our flag.

> I think Kate asking Leo if he was ‘in disguise’ when she meant stealth [...] does harm us

Okay, now this is what I wanted. I agree that this does harm us because saying “I disguise” has different implications than using “stealth.” Although the author cannot use “stealth” because what child knows that, right? She can leave it out and not have it affect the plot. You are right.

I agree that passing stems from transphobia. There is an air of expectation that we have to be passing to be valid, rather than for our safety or because we want it, but I feel the book is still good. I suppose it is because I had it easy as a trans individual (well, aside from HRT being a pain in the ass) that I am more accepting. It fits closely with how my trans journey was growing up, and as a result, it describes how it felt navigating as a trans person. Not everyone will like how the author writes about us; that is okay, so you have every right to discredit a book like this.

bookdealmaybe t1_iryseqc wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:14 AM

I'm not gonna talk about other points, cause while I may not agree with you on them, I do recognize that I may be wrong.

>Okay, now this is what I wanted. I agree that this does harm us because saying “I disguise” has different implications than using “stealth.” Although the author cannot use “stealth” because what child knows that, right? She can leave it out and not have it affect the plot. You are right.

This I want to talk about. Cause you're right, it's not unheard of for a trans kid to not know the word stealth. That's not the problem I have with it. The problem I have is that it is specifically mentioned that Kate has done a TON of research on trans issues that she has in a binder to show her parents when she decides to come out. But... she's never seen the word 'stealth' before?

FrustratingMangooose t1_irytfc0 wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:21 AM

I don’t know; until now, I did not know what “stealth” meant, and I used to do a lot of research about trans folks. I do not know when the term became used for trans folks but growing up when you “stealth” it means you have unprotective sex without the recipient’s permission. Is it weird, yes, but not far-fetched; this could be because not even I knew what that term meant, and yes, I did have to search it up before responding because I was like, “stealth? Huh?” Considering I am 20 and had no idea, I think it is a tiny bit reasonable to assume a 14-year-old would not know.

bookdealmaybe t1_iryu188 wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:26 AM

Yeah, I can see that since you explained it. Idk, I've known the term 'stealth' since I first learned what trans is. I do have a tendency to project my experiences onto other people, so I concede the point that she may not have heard the word before.

FrustratingMangooose t1_iryvxhc wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:41 AM

Yeah, I had no idea what that word meant until now. I mean, I am glad I do, but I always called those specific people “toast.” Trans ghost. People who cut off ties with their trans identity and live as cisgender people after transitioning. I highly doubt anyone else called them that, but I had no term to describe them.

bookdealmaybe t1_irywdly wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:44 AM

Well, yeah, but you had a non problematic term for it, which was the point I was initially making. Even if you didn't know 'stealth' specifically, you had a term that didn't imply trans peeps were playing pretend.

Though, I do agree a kid might not realize 'in disguise' is problematic

FrustratingMangooose t1_iryxtqy wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:55 AM

Yeah, I do not think a kid would know, but that does not excuse the author for writing it. She can omit it and the plot would remain the same, so you are right regardless.

FrustratingMangooose t1_iry5ijo wrote on October 11, 2022 at 10:17 PM

Regardless, while I see what you mean until the OP can explain how the author is writing with hidden transphobia and how that harms us, I will disagree for now. I think the points the OP created have more to do with that they felt unrepresented as an individual, which is okay! The OP has every right to feel that way but mixing as something that harms every trans individual—as if the author was trying to paint us horribly—that part? Yeah, I disagree. The OP has every right to feel the way they do, though.

bookdealmaybe t1_iry73em wrote on October 11, 2022 at 10:29 PM

>as if the author was trying to paint us horribly

See, this is the thing you and I disagree on. I don't think OP ever tried to claim that. That's kinda what I was getting at earlier with my internalized transphobia analogy.

Transphobia (to me) is anything that stirs negative emotion in a person related to a trans person that is for no other reason than because they're trans.

I went to get my labs done the other day, and the lab tech looked at me as if I had three heads. I don't think she meant to give me a weird look, because people as a rule try not to be rude in professional setting. Did her look harm me? No, not really. Was it a result of transphobia? Yeah.

That's what I mean when I say there's a difference between having transphobia in you vs. Being transphobic.

People have biases in their life that they can't fully control (many of which was conditioned into them in their life by their upbringing). This is having transphobia in you.

People who try to harm people because of these biases is what (i believe) makes someone transphobic.

JK Rowling isn't transphobic cause she has biases. It's because she uses her fame and platform to punch down on trans women that checks that box.

FrustratingMangooose t1_irys4ve wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:12 AM

I do not know what the technician was thinking, but I live in an area where professionals will look at you like you are crazy no matter what. Such is the case of living in NYC. If it was the result of transphobia, I am transphobic too because I do something similar. I remember walking into a store, and I had seen this person. I do not know their pronouns, but they had long hair and body hair and wore a dress with boots. My immediate reaction was, “oh, wow. What are they? Transgender? Non-binary? Interesting.” Yes, I continued to stare subtly, and the more I stared, the more curious I became. I met my reaction curiously, but I never had any ill-mannered response such as, “oh my God. What is that?” I never thought, “Jesus Christ. Why is a dude wearing a dress?” We cannot assume everyone will ponder with malevolence unless we become mind readers. Could she have stared at you out of transphobia, yes? Can you guarantee that was the case? Not unless you asked her. What if she liked what you were wearing? Your hair? Maybe you have beautiful eyes. I can think of a million reasons why I stare at people, and mostly because I am curious or something about them captivates me. Now, since this is your experience, I am going to say that you have right every right to say she was doing it because of transphobia, but you should also know not everyone will meet you with transphobia. It is a defensive mechanism, if you ask me, to assume everyone we meet has an issue with us but is that so? Does everyone have a problem with trans people? I do not know your journey, nor can I argue your experience, but I wanted to provide you with an alternative. Sometimes we think people are against us when it is quite the opposite.

I agree that people have biases they cannot control, but transphobia is transphobia. If you internalize it, you can equally externalize it. Regardless of how an individual expresses their transphobia, the harm it does collectively is enough. There are a lot of issues with JK Rowling that make her transphobic, which were not biases, but logical fallacies, since her arguments have since been debunked.

An example of internalized transphobia was the need to “pass.” This issue has only recently come to fruition, but it has roots in internalized transphobia because many people deemed passing as a requirement to having your trans identity verified. It was not transphobic to want your body and gender to align, but it was transphobic to make people think that your trans identity has validity if you pass. This is STILL an issue in our community and does not stop with only cisgender people.

Another issue rooted in internalized transphobia is wanting your voice to match your identity so others would feel more comfortable, which, again, has only recently come to fruition.

There are many examples of internalized transphobia that unironically coexist with externalized transphobia. Why? Because it’s transphobia. It does not matter how you express it, it is transphobic to hold those beliefs, and most examples do not only harm the person. It damages trans individuals altogether. You can call it different names and say, “well, this is [...],” but the basis of these two remains the same: transphobia. How that person expresses their transphobia will be different, but it is transphobic nonetheless. There is no shame in accepting that you are transphobic. I was transphobic, and I had to work with a therapist to unpack that. I thought saying, “well, the least I could do is pass,” and “I need to dress more femininely if I want to call myself transgender.” “I am too masculine-looking to use she/her pronouns” were acceptable. The worst offender? “Trans women cannot enter women’s spaces unless they have womanly parts.” Yes. Inevitably, while applying these beliefs to myself, I began to externally apply them to other trans individuals. Some people never do that, but all things in the dark will eventually come to light, no?

I thought it was sensible to have these views, but these are transphobic, and they not only harmed me —but also how I spoke about our community in the past likely left people with a sour taste in their mouths, which gave them more reasons to hate us. Transphobia affects everyone; it does not end with you.

bookdealmaybe t1_iryt4zu wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:19 AM

>I am going to say that you have right every right to say she was doing it because of transphobia, but you should also know not everyone will meet you with transphobia.

No, I agree, not everyone will meet me with transphobia. Not everyone does. She looked at me like I was about to mug her, when I was just signing into my appointment. Maybe not transphobia, but balance of probability, yeah it was.

No, what I mean is even the cis people I know who support trans people (even the ones who do more than just pay lip service) have issues with trans issues. A guy at my work told someone to fuck off for calling me 'whatever that thing is' and he's knowledgeable about transition and stuff, but when he texts me, he specifically refers to me as a 'guy' and 'bro', even after I've asked him not to.

FrustratingMangooose t1_iryug9k wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:29 AM

No, I understand what you mean. I knew someone like that. They will “support” trans people while simultaneously discarding their existence. All I was saying is keeping our minds open to both possibilities is a lot healthier than assuming everyone is against us. Some people, as you have pointed out, are downright transphobic. They try to be accepting, but we all know they would be more comfortable ignoring our existence. I have met too many people that pretend to be an ally only because “I pass as a woman.” It makes no sense. Your experience with the technician is valid, especially having more context; I would have likely assumed it was out of transphobia too.

bookdealmaybe t1_iryv1gj wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:34 AM

Yeah, I feel <3

Don't get it twisted, I'm a 'you catch more flies with honey than vinegar' type girl. I just have a tendency to keep an eye on people who I feel have a little transphobia in them (by my definition). I still treat them as sweet as I can, but I make sure I'm safe with them before I come near being alone with them.

FrustratingMangooose t1_irywjhl wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:46 AM

No, yeah. I treat everyone with respect, but too many people abuse it. You can never know when people are going to use your identity against you, and interestingly enough, they always switch up when they find out. Hm.

bookdealmaybe t1_iryx0ji wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:49 AM

frfr

bookdealmaybe t1_irytsxc wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:24 AM

Oh, just for reference, I live in Arkansas, aka the state that currently has a law being fought in the courts on whether trans kids should be allowed hormones. So, yeah, our experiences with trans issues are probably a lot different.

Not to mention iirc, you're bipoc, so if I understand correctly, you probably have different experiences from a white trans girl even in NYC?

FrustratingMangooose t1_iryv5dn wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:35 AM

Oh, then yeah, I would argue it is much easier to transition in NYC than in some other people. Socially, though, it is dangerous, especially for a BIPOC. I chose to transition after high school because I could not deal with the trans folk ending up in hospitals, committing suicide because of bullying, etc. It was too much for me. I did not want to end up like them, as horrible as that sounds. A lot of my internalized transphobia is a direct reflection of how people in New York viewed trans folks, so that’s what I was saying that.

bookdealmaybe t1_iryvj4v wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:38 AM

Oh, fam (I was gonna say girl, but I'm not certain if that's correct). I am with you on that. I've known I was trans for a while but only recently started to present as myself in public, because I was terrified of coming out in the south. Kept trying to move to better places before making that leap. Idk if I'm ever gonna be able to get out of the south at this rate, so I said fuck it.

FrustratingMangooose t1_iryxni1 wrote on October 12, 2022 at 1:54 AM

A girl is fine! I am non-binary, so whatever pronouns people use are okay as long as they are respectful. I knew I was trans forever, and even though I had a good support system, it was scary transitioning. People say the medical aspect of transition is hard, but I say the social aspect is like a knife on a chalkboard.

bookdealmaybe t1_iryyel1 wrote on October 12, 2022 at 2:00 AM

Oh, frfr. I knew i was trans at like 16 or so, but even my mom admits there were signs from 3-4 years old. My dad's a baptist preacher, so it was hard to come out to them. even when i did they "supported" me in that they didn't kick me out, but i still to this day (14 years later) have to convince my dad that trans people can exist without assuming his god made a mistake

FrustratingMangooose t1_iryzi90 wrote on October 12, 2022 at 2:09 AM

I think I knew I was trans right when puberty hit, and that solidified that I was not going to be a girl. I mean, I am dramatizing it because I developed feminine features as I went through puberty, but the thought of testosterone coursing through my body was such an uncomfortable feeling that I quite literally went through half my life thinking that I can ignore it 😪

bookdealmaybe t1_irz039x wrote on October 12, 2022 at 2:13 AM

Girl, I legit think i repressed my transness, cause I remember when i was a kid i had dreams of being a girl, I dressed in secret (before i ever knew being trans was a thing). I knew something was up, but never knew what.

I remember in gym in high school being weirded out cause when we did jumping jacks a certain feature flopped against the front of my shorts. I legit phoned in jumping jacks to avoid the possibility that it might be noticable cause it made me super dysphoric.

FrustratingMangooose t1_irz2f5h wrote on October 12, 2022 at 2:32 AM

I used to do the same thing! I remember having to explain how it feels to wake up every day feeling disconnected from yourself. Every dream I had, was the person I wanted to be but had no way of becoming. It was weird that I could never picture myself as a man when people said, “where do you see yourself in ten years,” and it was so difficult to imagine myself as a man😪 Not telling people I would like to be a happy woman was like I was lying to myself

I hated P.E. for the same reasons you had. Dressing up where my (invisible, but still felt) muscles were showing and having my junk move was uncomfortable, especially since I wore tight clothing to prevent movement since I did not know what tucking was at the time. Oh, and entering the boy’s locker room? I hated it. It was so uncomfortable

bookdealmaybe t1_irz3gff wrote on October 12, 2022 at 2:41 AM

I daydream before going to bed to wind down my brain (where most of my stories start out funnily enough) and it was always a girl me. It's a wonder it took so long to click honestly!

I didnt mind the boys locker room specifically so much as the fact i had to change in front of people. i got in the habit p quick of wearing my gym clothes under my uniform so i could just slip out of the uniform, throw it in a locker and go

FrustratingMangooose t1_irzw14m wrote on October 12, 2022 at 8:03 AM

Ugh, yeah. That feeling of realization is the best, though. You finally have an answer to what was going through your head the whole time

I don’t know, maybe it was because of my school, but transphobia was disgustingly apparent, and the boys (the children within my grade) changed with the men (the people older than us; seniors), which never made any sense, but you know. Thank God I’m in college, lmao

FrustratingMangooose t1_iryzu88 wrote on October 12, 2022 at 2:11 AM

My dad was a regular one, honestly. Most of my family was more progressive than I thought, but I never told my mom that I was trans. I have no idea how she will react, but that day will come when it comes. (Sadly)

bookdealmaybe t1_irz07rg wrote on October 12, 2022 at 2:14 AM

Hopefully it goes well fam <3

mongreldogchild t1_irzr5ty wrote on October 12, 2022 at 6:53 AM

Intention versus impact. You can cause harm without meaning to. Our society is inherently transphobic from our media, socialization, and to our language. Just like our society is racist for the same reasons. You can be racist and/or transphobic and not mean to cause harm. You can be transphobic and only have good intentions. Maliciousness is not the only way to cause harm.

FrustratingMangooose t1_irzvqkh wrote on October 12, 2022 at 7:59 AM

If the author is transphobic and writes with hidden transphobia in mind, then that is inherently malicious. Regardless, I have already spoken to someone about the OP claiming the author was transphobic, so I fear I will no longer be explaining that.

mongreldogchild t1_irzy5ah wrote on October 12, 2022 at 8:35 AM

I read the OP and I think you're reading into one phrase that she said A LOT. You can disagree on the idea of "passive" transphobia; I don't care about your feelings on that. Of course, someone being purposefully malicious IS harmful, but that's not what we're talking about. It's pretty clear throughout the OP that she is not stating that the author is an outright, unabashed transphobe purposefully sneaking in transphobia. ("intentional or not", "some flawed thinking" and then multiple times saying outright that she doesn't think the author is) Hence why I bring up societal conditioning which is what the other poster and the OP are clearly talking about.

mongreldogchild t1_irzqt6w wrote on October 12, 2022 at 6:48 AM

>I mean, if this were true, then the need to transition would be unnecessary. If you have not transitioned (medically, socially, etc.), then how are you already the opposite gender? Because you feel like it? It does not work like that. Quite the contrary, the reason why most trans people transition is because they are not already the gender to which they feel attached.

You're assuming an entire group of people off your understanding on a topic. Most of the people I know, my own experience, and from others online has been to seek medical transitioning to ease gender dysphoria. This isn't the only perspective, but it's the most common one I hear.

>I suppose it is more progressive using colorful language, but the last part seems emotionally driven if trans people have never said, “I was born a boy” and “I used to be [gender].” I say that all the time. It’s simple, straightforward, and better for me. Everyone has a different way of explaining they are transgender.

I say that too, but it's because people don't understand and think I'm a trans woman if I'm not straightforward about what people perceived me as before. It doesn't reflect how I feel about myself or how I felt about myself. I was always a man (except when I was a boy).

>I think you should rewrite this review with less emotionally-driven thoughts because some things are subjective to each trans person, and you make it abundantly clear throughout your review that you were expecting this story to tightly fit your experience as a trans person, which is wrong to justify attacking the author for not catering to your experience.

You just did this exact thing to OP but pushing forward your own perspective as the "real" trans experience.

>I think you need to give the author the benefit of the doubt. We need to stop saying everyone is transphobic without justifiable reasons. While I would have preferred a trans person to write a story like this, I appreciate that a ciswoman tried her best to not only understand our struggle but equally try to represent it. Keyword: try. I am not saying she did anything award-winning, but the effort shows, and it was a step in the right direction.

No one needs to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, but you're in luck because OP literally did just that. Multiple times OP gave the author the benefit of the doubt. Why are you complaining?

You can criticize something while enjoying it and even finding it helpful (in comparison to the norm). You can also be thankful for something while realizing it was not what you wanted and didn't do you or anyone else any good in having it.

FrustratingMangooose t1_irzv8cp wrote on October 12, 2022 at 7:51 AM

> You’re assuming an entire group of people off your understanding of a topic.

Nope. I said most trans people for a reason, just like you. You agreed to my point anyway, lol.

> I say that too, but it’s because people don’t understand and think I’m a trans woman if I’m not straightforward about what people perceived me as before.

That’s why I said everyone has a different way of explaining they are transgender. I mentioned that there is nothing wrong with a trans individual saying it is a response to what the OP was saying.

> [...] Pushing forward your perspective as the “real” trans experience.

No. I make it clear which parts are my perspective, most of which are direct responses to the OP’s expectation that the author writes a “trans experience” as contrived and cliché; that, while not every trans individual will experience the same struggle, it exists.

> No one needs to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. [...]

That is why I said, “I think you should,” which was not an obligation. It was a suggestion. The OP can do whatever they want; I do not care enough to “complain.” Lol.

mongreldogchild t1_irzxsvg wrote on October 12, 2022 at 8:30 AM

>Nope. I said most trans people for a reason, just like you.

You didn't quantify it in the same way. You said "this is the way most trans people feel". You also said that most trans people aren't their gender, they feel like they are, otherwise transitioning would be pointless lmao

>That’s why I said everyone has a different way of explaining they are transgender

I agree with this, it doesn't change the fact that this isn't coming from a trans person. It's a cis person and many cis people phrase it this way because they don't understand.

>No. I make it clear which parts are my perspective, most of which are direct responses to the OP’s expectation that the author writes a “trans experience” as contrived and cliché; that, while not every trans individual will experience the same struggle, it exists.

Except when you didn't. Like stating most trans people (not the ones you know, not even yourself or your friends as a metric, MOST) trans people think this way and see themselves this way.

You criticized OP's method of writing this because it didn't conform to your expectations of a review. You also said OP is expecting the author to cater to their experience. Which is the exact thing you're doing. You both write your perspectives in the exact same way, but your perspective fits with the book.

>That is why I said, “I think you should,” which was not an obligation. It was a suggestion. The OP can do whatever they want; I do not care enough to “complain.” Lol.

You complained about their tone for two paragraphs and told them what you wanted them to do. The fact that you couched it with "I think" doesn't change that.