Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

PerspectiveCloud t1_ja82kvk wrote

Reply to comment by black641 in Putin casts war as a battle for Russias survival by R1ckCrypto

It’s not just that this is some off-beat Putin opinion. Most of the older generations of Russians, especially retired, have a very strong opinion about “the motherland”.

I mean, if California succeeded from the US in an economic collapse, it’s pretty plausible to believe that Americans would still consider it to be an “American” territory, vassal, or rebellious state. If several states broke apart from the US, there would be a strong following of people who believe the US deserves to reclaim and reunite and that should be a political goal. Now imagine if Russia started arming these breakaway states.

It’s still an unjust and unethical war in Ukraine, but the perception in Russia is just different. Most of the opposers to the war are young people, who don’t have any government power.

−8

Ofwa t1_ja85av9 wrote

California is not to the US as Ukraine is to Russia. Also Californians identify as Americans. The Ukrainians I know do not identify as Russians neither do their ancestors.

13

PerspectiveCloud t1_ja86ggz wrote

The point isn’t how Californians view themselves. It’s how Americans would view a succeeded state, California being a likely candidate for its GDP and ideal borders.

The point also isn’t how Ukrainians view themselves. It is how the older generations of Russians view Ukraine.

I don’t know how you missed that point of the post.

−11

Ofwa t1_ja8yywq wrote

I think I understand what you are saying : Older Russians may view the Ukraine as a succeeded state. But Ukraine has had its own language and culture since the 800’s CE. Probably before. (With perhaps a total of two centuries of conquest and division between neighboring states during that time.) After the Bolshevik revolution, USSR claimed it as a constituent state in 1922 till 1991 when it regained independence.

In contrast to older Russians, I think the older Ukrainians and younger ones who speak their language and know their culture, history and landscape, do not view their independence as a secession. They view it as their rightful homeland. Maybe parallel to California for older Russians and Putin’s propaganda, but not parallel in history.

3

canadave_nyc t1_ja8fp7s wrote

> If several states broke apart from the US, there would be a strong following of people who believe the US deserves to reclaim and reunite and that should be a political goal.

And, coincidentally enough, this actually happened, and Americans call it "The Civil War."

You're right. This is what's so discouraging--the Russians' "claim" to Ukraine is juuuust plausible enough, historically, for many people there to be won over by Putin's rhetoric. Add to that claims of "persecution of Russians" in eastern Ukraine, "Nazis" in the Ukrainian leadership who want to destroy Russia, and the general anti-Western and anti-NATO paranoia that there's always been....well, that's all very tough to try to argue against.

0

medievalvelocipede t1_ja9op94 wrote

>well, that's all very tough to try to argue against.

No it's very easy as it's all total bullshit. You don't argue with bullshit, you just dismiss it.

1

PerspectiveCloud t1_ja8jc9a wrote

Yes but I don’t feel like the Civil War is nearly a good comparison. It’s a completely different era and the Confederacy was never a Sovereign nation. A succeeded union, sure, but pretty conceptually different. An ongoing civil conflict with a short few years of independence.

Also it’s interesting when Russians talk about Nazi’s, because so many westerners are contextualizing “nazi” to be a universal term. “Nazi” to Russia has never meant “Nazi” the way the US see it. Lots of interesting reads out there on this topic. In short, it is about the invaders from the west that caused the Great Patriotic War, or WW2.

The Nazi terminology in the Ukraine war is much more about the western favoring government that “infiltrated” this ex-Soviet state back in 2014. Which makes sense, since Kiev has suppressed and attacked the Russia-favoring republics of Donetsk and Luhansk for nearly a decade. The Nazi narrative makes some sense when you look at it from that perspective, “invaders from the west”.

−3

canadave_nyc t1_ja930ci wrote

The "invaders from the west" thing also resonates very strongly with many Russians such as Putin, because the West sent troops to Russia during the Russian Civil War that ended the Russian Revolution. As the Wikipedia page on the subject says:

"Soviet and Russian interpretations greatly exaggerate the role of the Allies in the Civil War and try to portray these as attempts to suppress the Bolshevik revolution and to partition Russia."

So yes, there is a very strong sentiment against "invaders from the west" that doubtless plays a part in Putin's/Russians' thinking.

2

PerspectiveCloud t1_jabbkce wrote

It makes sense why the west and Russia fail to see eye to eye on foreign policies when you look at these things. There’s a really good Youtuber, a Russian citizen who interviews folk from all demographics about their opinions on literally anything related to current events. Goes by the name “1420 by Daniil Orain”. Great translations with raw footage.

It really helps grasp why the sentiment is so different.

1