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SoCalThrowAway7 t1_j1rdbll wrote

Reply to comment by Blackdragonking13 in 'BLEACH: Thousand-Year Blood War' Part 2 Premieres July 2023 by MarvelsGrantMan136

I think he also benefits from his motives, at the end of the day ichigo just wants to protect what’s important to him and have a chill time with his friends and family. He’s not always shouting about becoming the head captain, or the shinigami king. He just wants the strength to protect what’s important to him. He has lapses in self confidence you don’t often see in the genre too.

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InnocentTailor t1_j1rm5tt wrote

Definitely! His goals are more profound than a mere title. It also keeps him relevant for a lot longer in stories because protecting loved ones is a lifelong desire.

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SPorterBridges t1_j1t5g1u wrote

> I think he also benefits from his motives, at the end of the day ichigo just wants to protect what’s important to him and have a chill time with his friends and family.

Generic shounen bad guy: "Do you even know what you are fighting for? Why do you do fight?!"

Generic shounen good guy: "...to protect my friends!"

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Maloth_Warblade t1_j1tt1yf wrote

The direct threat against him and his family is so obvious at times it works though

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Keepitsway t1_j1uo7xb wrote

Generic shounen antagonist defeat cry: "But I'm perfect! I'm the absolute of the absolute! How can this be possible?!"

Generic shounen protagonist response: "Because you didn't love your friends/give up being antagonistic. I hope you become a better version of yourself one day."

Generic shounen antagonist: "Friends? Have I been wrong this whole time?"

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

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Quirkyusername420 t1_j1tc352 wrote

I actually disagree with everything you just said. He doesn't just wanna protect his friends and family. Yes that is his characters writing explicitly but he enjoys fighting and kicking ass. He is petty and has a massive ego and it hurts when enemies stomp him. He wants to get back at his enemies, in fact in its most extreme case it gets in the way of protecting his friends( Ichigo telling Orihime to heal Ulquiorra so he could fight him himself). . This side of his character is almost always implicit which is why Kubo is such a talented writer. Remember how Ulquiorra stopped his Getsuga tenshou with his bare hands? He got back at Ulquiorra by stopping Ulquiorra's spear at point blank range in Vasto Lorde form. He did the same thing against Aizen. Remember how Ichigo stopped Aizen's sword wit his hand and what he told him? It's also why he didn't instantly kill Byakuya back in soul society arc. He wanted to get back at him for making fun of his small bankai and also for absolutely destroying him back in human world. If he just wanted to save Rukia he could have just killed Byakuya right there and then. Another instance I can think of right now is his fight against Grimmjow. I think he was actually enjoying that fight so much that he held himself back just to drag the fight. And when Orihime yelled his name he kind of came back to his senses. It reminded him of why he was there so he stops Grimmjows claw and says " sorry Grimmjow, I have to end this".

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APiousCultist t1_j1vbpd1 wrote

> He is petty and has a massive ego and it hurts when enemies stomp him.

I think being upset about being stomped is pretty universal across everyone. Most of the examples you've listed are more a sort of dramatic irony than the character actually turning to camera and shouting "You see what I just did?"

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Sputniki t1_j1rwked wrote

That’s every anime lead though? They always wanna be strong, but even more so, they wanna do the right thing.

If anything having a main character prioritize being strong over doing the right thing - now that would be an actually special character.

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master6494 t1_j1rxh4j wrote

That's just Goku mate.

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Sputniki t1_j1s9tnn wrote

Nah Goku would absolutely do the right thing over getting stronger. His sense of righteousness / defending his loved ones is incredibly strong.

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eides-of-march t1_j1schxt wrote

Goku literally doomed 11 universes to erasure because he wanted to fight strong people

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solversavis t1_j1sf5fg wrote

Goku is notoriously selfish for a main protagonist. While Ichigo could be a subversion with his extensive self reflection, Goku could be said to take the opposite extreme. He once gave a senzu bean to his sons would be murderer, never once questioning if maybe that wasn't the right move.

And it definitely wasn't. The murder-suicide on king kai was completely avoidable. Even when his family wished him back he decides to fuck off and train for several years. Dudes a deadbeat dad by any definition. He chose to dies rather than stay with his family.

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THETRILOBSTER t1_j1syewh wrote

>He chose to dies rather than stay with his family.

He said he did that for Earth and his family's protection, since it seemed as though trouble had followed him around for the better part of this life.

But yes, poor Chi Chi. :( That woman may have a stick up her ass but she puts up with so much from that man.

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czartaylor t1_j1szkp9 wrote

Honestly, the sensu bean to cell is probably the most defensible punt made in DBZ. Because it was returning the favor to cell after he got his perfect form and decided to not kill everyone (even though it was well, well within his power to do so) but give everyone a chance to power up and fight him 1 on 1. The sensu bean was cell's one.

Also Goku was sure Gohan had that one, bean or no. Which he ultimately did have, the only reason it got close is because Gohan out of no where started to channel his inner goku.

It wasn't a good idea at any level, but it's definitely understandable why Goku, a notoriously lenient fighter with a lot of pride and honor, to do it for him. It definitely wasn't as egregious a punt as a) letting cell get his perfect form, b) gohan not killing cell when he had the chance the first time, c) krillin not destroying 18, d) 18 not running when vegeta was busy decimating imperfect cell.

Goku's many, many punts in the buu arc however.....

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kerriazes t1_j1tn473 wrote

Perfect Cell not killing everyone, even if capable, is not a reason to owe him anything, what the fuck?

By that logic, everyone on Earth owes everyone on Earth a favor because everyone on Earth is theoretically capable of killing any other person.

Giving Perfect Cell a Senzu bean directly lead to Cell evolving further.

Goku trusting Gohan is not a valid reason to endanger everyone on the planet.

Goku is reckless and thoughtless, and regularly puts everyone else at risk.

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Leshawkcomics t1_j1t3uo6 wrote

I remember that arc. It was one of the trio-de-dangers who insisted goku did that in-universe. No less than 3 times in the arc did they point out that said take is absolute bullshit.

Like, 3 different angels, including the head angel said “The 11 universes were going to die anyway. Goku’s suggestion is the ONLY reason they survived because he convinced God to give them a fighting chance.”

Do… Do people not actually watch the show?

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eides-of-march t1_j1xr4b2 wrote

Reminder that goku did all of this before he was told that all 12 were set to be erased. It doesn’t matter what the end result was if the intention was still there. Either way, there’s plenty of other instances of him being a total asshole ranging from being a deadbeat dad to actually murdering King Kai

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Leshawkcomics t1_j1y3zs8 wrote

His intention was to have a battle.

There is nothing wrong with that.

Also, would you like me to prove you wrong on the deadbeat dad argument?

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SoCalThrowAway7 t1_j1sosfg wrote

Goku gave cell a sensu bean to Cell to heal up so he could watch gohan, his barely teenage son, have a cooler fight that he absolutely did not want to have…

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czartaylor t1_j1sz5j0 wrote

Shout out to when Goku could have killed Majin Buu but refused to do so so someone else could tag in and finish Buu off.

and then failed to do so and Goku had to tag back in.

.....twice.

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Leshawkcomics t1_j1t4gei wrote

If you were in goku’s position, and your teenage son was the only person in the world who stood a chance, would you have him die after watching his world get destroyed because he’s too young to be fighting?

Would you refuse the senzu bean?

Cell has the personality flaws of frieza, piccolo, and vegeta. All think they’re invincible when they’re at 100% power and can be caught off guard. All go full ‘blow up everything instead of finishing the fight’ the moment they think that their opponent might have an edge on them.

Would you refuse the senzu bean if it was your son?

Would you have refused to let gohan fight?

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kerriazes t1_j1tn9s4 wrote

If you trusted Gohan to beat Cell at 100%, the sensible and not reckless thing would be letting Gohan fight Cell who is not at 100%.

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Leshawkcomics t1_j1uq832 wrote

Even knowing that cell range quits when he thinks he might lose?

Because his most obvious personality traits come from people who have done exactly that?

Cause Goku straight up told Gohan several times to finish him off asap for that specific reason cause he knew cell was like that.

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kerriazes t1_j1uu8v4 wrote

None of those points are in support of your argument.

Because those things still happened despite giving Cell a Senzu bean. He still blew himself up after losing to Gohan.

That wouldn't have changed had Goku refrained from healing Cell, except without the Senzu bean, Gohan would have had an easier time of cornering Cell.

Which might have left Gohan with enough energy to do something about it, or hell, even defeat Cell before he gets the chance to even think about blowing himself up.

Which is precisely why Goku is reckless.

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Leshawkcomics t1_j1ux02l wrote

Ah. So it's a matter of not knowing or caring about context.

I.E "Gohan choosing not to finish cell off once he had already powered up"

And don't forget the fact CELL SPECIFICALLY STATED THAT TRYING TO EVEN MOVE HIM WILL BLOW HIM UP FASTER.

Did you not watch the show or read the manga? Gohan easily had the energy to finish cell off and didn't use it.

I repeat he EASILY could have finished cell off at any point once he reached SS2 and didn't due to a twisted bout of sadism.

Goku used the senzu bean to stop cell from doing anything reckless if he was wary and low on energy. Which made cell so confident he STOPPED ATTACKING GOHAN to help push him to super Saiyan 2, thinking that at full power he could easily handle whatever that form could throw at him.

It was Gohan himself who just kept doing near fatal damage and waiting for cell to regenerate so he can do it again. He wasn't tired. The senzu bean made it easier for him. Pay attention to the actual story, not the abridged series.

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Monski616 t1_j1srpa9 wrote

I love goku but no man, he literally gives cell a sensu bean so cell can beat the shit out of his only son(at the time), then got himself and king Kai suicide bombed.

Then he agitated a god to the point Beerus was gonna destroy his planet.

Oh yeah then he got 11 universes erased from existence just because he wanted to fight strong people.

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InnocentTailor t1_j1sawer wrote

Yeah. He may be a bonehead, but he isn’t selfish. I recall that there are other DB characters that prioritize strength over righteousness: dark mirrors for our hero.

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Sputniki t1_j1scdrw wrote

Yep. Faced with getting stronger or saving the planet or the ones he loves, it's an easy decision every time for Goku.

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StarsMine t1_j1sedu4 wrote

Yea, his answer was getting stronger.

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SoCalThrowAway7 t1_j1sow6f wrote

He literally was like “nah I’m not gonna come back to life to protect the planet with you guys, you got it handled, I’m gonna stay dead so I can get stronger here.”

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King-Of-Throwaways t1_j1s7jg5 wrote

If you want anime protagonists who aren’t heroic, maybe look into Evangelion, Chainsaw Man, or Fate Zero. They all subvert or dissect the hero archetype.

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