Comments
CHBCKyle t1_iyanazh wrote
It’s real easy to talk shit about someone else’s country but not so easy to acknowledge the problems we have at home. It’s pathetic.
BassmanBiff t1_iyarbi8 wrote
Let's do both! It's also a problem when the only time we do talk about US prison labor is in order to say "Let's not talk about Chinese prison labor." It's also worth noting that China's program is even more explicitly racist than ours, but both should be considered unacceptable.
Badtrainwreck t1_iyb2w8f wrote
What are we going to all move to China and vote? If we can’t fix it here then how do we get China to stop?
420ohms t1_iybrjx0 wrote
Voting here doesn't even work.
BassmanBiff t1_iye2vph wrote
Yes it does, it just doesn't fix everything immediately. There really isn't a more impactful thing you can do with the hour or whatever it takes to do it. It's more than worth doing while pursuing other activism.
Put differently, voting is not sufficient, but it is necessary.
Whitewing424 t1_iyeqprn wrote
Voting is a useful form of harm reduction, but it doesn't solve systemic problems. Voting is something everyone should do because the effort is minimal, but nobody should expect it to be sufficient, as you say.
BassmanBiff t1_iye2fh5 wrote
We should absolutely try to fix it here, but calling it out everywhere is important and doesn't stop us from working on it at home. Import restrictions and slightly better consumer info are about all we can do about China, and while that's obviously not going to fix the problem, it still helps to do it.
Whitewing424 t1_iyeqxxl wrote
Given how many US corps are involved in both what China is doing and the US prison situation, don't hold your breath on those import restrictions.
US needs major reforms first.
BassmanBiff t1_iyewssd wrote
I was talking about ones we already have.
I'm under no illusion that those will fix anything, or that they're perfectly designed to target large and small companies equally, or that they're somehow more important than addressing our own problems. I'm saying that we can and should do both at once, and whichever front people choose to yell about, they should be encouraged so that we can redirect that energy instead of simply stamping it out whenever people choose the "wrong" issue.
monkeyheadyou t1_iyau2i6 wrote
Both are equally acted on now. And will continue to be connected forever. Plain fact is that until we fix the one we have power over we can never hope to affect the other. Make your representative fix ours and then they will have some standing to demand change in China.
BassmanBiff t1_iye4o3n wrote
Totally agreed that fixing problems at home is probably the best way to start trying to fix problems abroad, but I also don't think they're mutually exclusive. Let's absolutely fix the problems here, but calling it out elsewhere doesn't stop us from doing that.
If anything I think it helps to use China as a mirror to say "Look, we hate this when they do it, so why the fuck are we?"
monkeyheadyou t1_iyeekgn wrote
I was going to say "smart" stuff about us not doing anything then I read some of your comments with links to us doing something. so I will shut up and donate
Whitewing424 t1_iybustq wrote
Except we can do nothing about the Chinese problem that isn't an act of war, but we can theoretically solve the problem at home without invading another country. Going to the UN or using economic sanctions isn't going to work, and could escalate into war anyway.
Further, it's hypocritical to complain about what China is or isn't doing when we aren't putting in any effort to talk about the problem at home.
Fix your own house, then worry about what someone else is doing in theirs. If we want to stop China from doing bad things, then maybe we should have a moral leg to stand on first, or it's just going to go nowhere.
BassmanBiff t1_iye5zxh wrote
It's not either/or. Totally agreed that the best way to fix this is to fix it at home first, and we are trying to do that. But that goes both ways; we can use people yelling about China as leverage to encourage change at home, too.
I think it's self-defeating to only mention either of these problems when we're trying to call somebody a hypocrite for caring about the other one. It just shuts people down, it doesn't encourage them to actually do more. We should encourage people to shout about this stuff so we can redirect it, not simply shut it down because it feels righteous to call out "virtue signaling."
Whitewing424 t1_iyeq6ud wrote
The trouble is that it's a very common propaganda tactic to draw attention to other nations in order to make it easier to hide what happens at home. People have a finite amount of energy, attention, and outrage. If it is channeled against China, then it isn't being channeled at home. Look at the sheer number of news articles about what China is doing compared to the US prison situation. I wouldn't be surprised if its more than 10:1.
BassmanBiff t1_iyezslj wrote
Attention is limited, but also fragile. It comes from whatever people are passionate about, and shutting that down just makes people disengage, it doesn't get them fired up about something else -- least of all the thing that was important to whoever shut them down. So it's not a decision about "we have 10 attention, where do we put it," it's about "what generates more attention for us to use in the first place."
It's obviously selfish for people to disengage just because their feelings are hurt, but it's also just how people work whether we like it or not. I think it's important to acknowledge that, stoke whatever passions people have around this topic in general, and then encourage that passion to go further by redirecting it where it can do the most good.
Just policing which topics people get to feel passionate about, telling them to shut up and do better when they choose the wrong ones, doesn't really make anyone active for our preferred cause even if it's objectively more important. It does make us feel good to shout people down, though, by feeling like we're more aware than they are. I think it's very easy to convince ourselves that we're fighting the good fight when we're really just stoking our own ego.
No_Caregiver_5740 t1_iyb1w2t wrote
The thing is that yay say things about both so brave. But you only actually do something about 1 case its just purely virtue signalling
BassmanBiff t1_iye3dvh wrote
We are trying! If we can't do something about one until we do something about the other, then we'll never do anything about either.
nebkelly t1_iyb9lim wrote
A good example is Americans attaking Qatar about imported workers when they have as many as 25 million exploited and undocumented workers in the US. Apparently they make up like 50% of farm workers and 75% of factory workers there. And way more than 6,500 die on the job every year. Also, the US is a developed, first world country lol.
I honestly can't remember the last time a US politician, media person or podcaster talked about it. They talk about cracking down on border control sometimes. But never about outcomes for the existing population.
They have quietly recreated an undercaste class that was lost when actual slavery was banned.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybcpp2 wrote
Try watching Fox News. They have Never stopped talking about it. Nor anyone else who is or has lived on the southern border. All sides of the political spectrum. For YEARS. Just because you don’t like the source doesn’t make it ok not to be aware of what is going on.
nebkelly t1_iybkgta wrote
I follow US politics pretty closely for a foreigner and it used to be an important topic on the national agenda around the 2000s. It was raised during campaigns, debates etc. Parties had policies. International news ran stories on it.
Misrepresenting it as a southern/border states problem is the level the conversation has devolved to now. This is a group of exploited Americans that is spread nationwide and larger in number than Asians.
I believe the moral failure is simple economics/greed. Removing those workers from the US, or granting them rights and paying them properly and giving them social services, would pretty much tank the US economy. They are responsible for 15% or something of all US GDP.
There is nothing that really compares to it outside of the US and its become a shelved subject because of the economic boon from allowing it to continue unresolved.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iyblnms wrote
For a FOREIGNER, Whose opinion matters fuck to me, Is based upon “what other people have told me in the past” As opposed to actually living on both sides of the border or living with this shit.
The USA ain’t perfect but it’s at least better than where you’re living. I’ve lived in four countries. I’ve never been anywhere better
You are like a little girl, telling her mother what sex is like, Because you read something about it on the bathroom wall..
nebkelly t1_iybojbt wrote
You seem to have been triggered pretty hard by someone showing empathy lol. Why are you going into bat for a system that exploits millions of people.
And contributing to the problem by conflating border control (future immigrants) with a humanitarian problem (existing immigrants).
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybp3o1 wrote
Oh, you got me! Reread my last comment, last paragraph. Good day, and good luck with your life. Try working on whatever you call home and keep up your end of the bargain.
nebkelly t1_iybpvm4 wrote
So you're now arguing that Americans should not comment about workers in Qatar?
Senyu t1_iyansdw wrote
What supply chains are involved? Edit: Informative replies, thanks.
Whitewing424 t1_iyaqhz3 wrote
Prisoners make everything man. In texas alone (the largest unpaid prison labor program among the states), prisoners make soap, food products, perform animal husbandry, clothing, and are thus involved in every industry that relies on such products. California uses prisoners as firefighters (30 to 40% of CA firefighters are prisoners) and they are paid around $2 an hour (good luck finding any supply companies in CA that aren't reliant on such prison labor to not burn down). In Mississippi, prisoners are used to clear land for agriculture and the majority of farmland there was built by the hands of prisoners. Federal prisoners making less than $1 an hour make tons of things, ranging from furniture to a tremendous amount of military equipment our soldiers use. In Georgia, prisoners perform a lot of the sanitization work, and work on landfills, recycling, and even upkeeping golf courses (yes, for private clubs). These make up to $3 a day, while totally unpaid prisoners clean the streets, perform transporation work, and janitorial duties.
All around the country, prisoners are rented out to 3rd party companies for labor purposes. Major corporations like AT&T contract much of their work out to 3rd party companies that do this work, and those third party companies use unpaid (or extremely poorly paid) prison labor to win the lowest bidder contracts. Every state uses prison labor for a variety of work (much of which is either unpaid or vastly underpaid).
Things many businesses rely on, like food, food trays for the cafeteria, signs, call center work, paper products (like calendars) and far more are made by prisoners. Hell, even the railroads were originally built via convict leasing, and many of the biggest offenders are still around today as huge corporations after getting rich off of it (Like United States Steel Corporation).
Our entire country depends heavily on prison slave labor. There is a reason the US has the largest prison population on the planet (both in relative and absolute terms). We have 4% of the world's population, and 22% of the world's prison population. It encourages lawmakers to make unfair laws and law enforcment to go out of their way to find offenders to keep the prisons full.
mynamejulian t1_iyb3vdf wrote
CA firefighters are what surprise me. Seems like there would be plenty of opportunities to escape if you wanted to
Whitewing424 t1_iybsmwk wrote
Only lower security prisoners are used as firefighters, and there is still a substantial amount of supervision involved. CA has a lot of wildfires and needs a lot of firefighters. It's a dangerous job and few are willing to do it, while the pay isn't that great for such a risky job. So they've got two choices: use prisoners for close to free labor, or pay firefighters more to attract more hires. I'm sure there's the occasional escape. Here's a news story about one in 2021: https://lawandcrime.com/crime/california-prisoner-steals-fire-engine-tries-to-escape-custody-while-fighting-wildfire-video/
They went with the cheaper, vastly more unethical option.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybbmke wrote
Seems like they are being punished, or something.
[deleted] t1_iybrtwf wrote
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Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybspmz wrote
Didn’t say that. Do not try and put your words into my mouth. If you’re a convicted criminal, in the USA, working while incarcerated is a privilege. For which they volunteer. It’s that or simply sit your ass in the cell block, no commissary money earned. Try and find other ways to pay for your soap, toothbrush, toothpaste or anything else. Unless you have something keeping your commissary account full of money, you work. Remember, it’s the Criminal who put the Criminal in prison. Some places require the Criminal to work, in order to pay for SOMETHING- food, guards etc.
Don’t do the Crime, if you can’t do the time.
Whitewing424 t1_iybtav2 wrote
So you did say that then, it's their fault they're put in a situation where poorly paid or unpaid labor is the best thing they've got going, and have little to no choice but to work. Nevermind that laws are frequently improperly enforced, and are often even written specifically to keep the prisons full (instead of making society safer or healthier).
Claiming you didn't suggest something and then doubling down on it is an odd strategy.
And are you suggesting that there are no innocents falsely convicted as well?
The prison system in the US is a textbook example of a perverse incentive.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybuslv wrote
Again, I never said anything like that Criminals, committed crimes.
They pay. That’s what I said.
[deleted] t1_iyc7h5e wrote
Or ya know criminals could just serve their time or be rehabilitated and NOT be used as slaves for free/overwhelmingly cheap labor. Just a thought
ImNotTheGrimReaper t1_iyd5xqv wrote
Agreed. If you commit a crime no matter how big or small then you deserve to be a slave.
Badtrainwreck t1_iyao9dz wrote
Slavery is used in American prisons systems, so it’s products that are associated with that in the largest and most government protected sense.
Secondly the enslavement of disabled Americans forced to work for spare change so you can get a fucking pre made sandwich at a gas station
DreamOfTheEndlessSky t1_iyb9lgf wrote
Many sorts of things. Products ("to produce everything from mattresses, spectacles,road signs and body armour"), agriculture and firefighting through "convict leasing" programs ("Convict leasing was largely banned in the 20th century, but has once more grown in popularity as immigrant labor has become harder to find. Multiple states have now passed legislation allowing agricultural businesses to use prison labor when they cannot find enough workers to hire, and most prison workers are paid significantly less than non-prison labor.").
It's rather widespread.
Earlier this month, we doubled the number of states to have banned involuntary labor in prison … bringing it up to a heady eight, if challenges don't roll any back. We need more states to do so, and the Federal system as well.
shainotshai t1_iyc72px wrote
Yeah, the US should import some mirrors
uraffuroos t1_iyb2c8w wrote
but this isn't a bad thing in China?
Whitewing424 t1_iybrzcf wrote
No, but it's exceedingly hypocritical as an American to fixate on what China may or may not be doing when we're doing horrific things here.
Fix your own house, then criticize that of others.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybd1vn wrote
Apparently, according to many here, America bad. China kinda bad but, America ‘worse-r-est!’ That’s my take.
[deleted] t1_iydoedf wrote
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hawtpot87 t1_iyc2a9v wrote
Xi approves.
skunkatwork t1_iy9rupj wrote
Nice try oil company
420ohms t1_iybsf65 wrote
I looked up the Breakthrough Institute on wikipeida... yup I think you nailed it
deinterest t1_iyc8698 wrote
Not just this article either. Seen some negative articles about EV as well. Something seems fishy.
bitfriend6 t1_iya5hi9 wrote
Solar panels are not exclusively made in China nor require slave labor to use, an attack on the solar industry is not an attack on the technology in the same way criticism of TEPCO's handling of Fukishima is not an attack on nuclear energy as a whole. I expect my solar panels to be made by people who want to make them in dignified, tolerable working conditions. Anything less is an assault on democracy and liberal society.
BunnyReturns_ t1_iya7h66 wrote
I mean you as a person can buy slave free solar panels with a ton of research.
The world cannot in it's current state expand solar power without China.
https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/chinas-dominance-solar-panel-supply-chain/
kurai_tori t1_iya9k97 wrote
Sounds like governments should incentivize domestic solar panel manufacturering
ahfoo t1_iyc5x3w wrote
Hah hah! That's amusing. But you must understand that this would not be fair. It's not fair for the government to distort the market you see. That would not be fair. Tariffs --well, that's different.
Tariffs are another story because they punish solar and that benefits oil so that's fair. See? It's all about what's fair.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybd9i9 wrote
Seems like the Obama administration tried too.
BunnyReturns_ t1_iyacatu wrote
Sure, but I haven't read if there is material to just dig up and produce.
China controls 45% of the material needed to build solarpanels (polysilicon) and they control 60% of the wafer manufacturing.
So even if it's possible to just replace, it would probably take a decade or more before it even starts producing
ahfoo t1_iyc5pvy wrote
Gadzooks! The level of disinformation here is absurd. The US used to be the leading polysilicon supplier to China before the Obama tarrifs that killed the US polysilicon industry. Polysilicon is not rare, it is made of quartz which is found everywhere.
The reason China ramped up their production was because of the Obama tariffs which were designed to shut down the business because oil is what the US is all about. Obama worked for the Big Boys just like all US presidents.
BunnyReturns_ t1_iyc65te wrote
What part of it is misinformation? I stated that I don't know if there is any material to dig up in other countries. I didn't say that there wasn't, and you didn't dispute the rest which was from the article?
ahfoo t1_iyc7c9g wrote
The hit piece article?
BunnyReturns_ t1_iyc7l2o wrote
I only used the data at the very top, didn't even read the article as that wasn't my point
joeg26reddit t1_iyal5hl wrote
Nice try CCP supporter
uncreativemynameis t1_iyavav0 wrote
Nice try oil company supporter.
joeg26reddit t1_iyaz3xo wrote
Nice try Xi
Sajun t1_iy93q7u wrote
I would take this with a grain of salt:
prometheus2508 t1_iy95xwx wrote
Can you elaborate on your feelings of this source?
Sajun t1_iy97uh3 wrote
"Since its inception, many environmental scientists and academics outside of the institute have criticized Breakthrough's environmental positions.[12][13][14][15][16][17] However, the work and ecomodernist philosophy of the Breakthrough Institute have been well received in some quarters.[18] Popular press reception of Breakthrough's environmental ideas and policy has been mixed. [19][20][21][22][23][24][16][25][26][27]"
[deleted] t1_iybsy2k wrote
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prometheus2508 t1_iy981jp wrote
"Some people aren't happy about them" is all that reads.
Jesus, blocked me over that?
Now he's got his porn throwaway involved. Dude, the wiki hardly lists substantive criticisms. Which one bothers you: nuclear energy, industrial agriculture, or seeking a breakthrough in fighting climate change?
Sajun t1_iy9b2h4 wrote
Not really, but okay.
edit: lol I don't even have a porn throwaway on Reddit.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybelx2 wrote
GMOs, More synthetic fertilizers, urbanization of the world.
uraffuroos t1_iyb2g9p wrote
aren't happy thus debunked LOL some people on here right
Throwawaywowg t1_iy9hsgi wrote
Dude just read the shit for yourself god it’s not hard he linked it to you.
dr_taco_wallace t1_iya6ncf wrote
> Can you elaborate on your feelings of this source? >
They're a genocide denialist and fascist sympathizer, totally obvious before even checking their comment history.
> https://old.reddit.com/r/Marxism_Memes/comments/x3kn2o/no_i_dont/imruxua/?context=3 > > Still waiting for the uyghur genocide proof.
CHBCKyle t1_iyap0co wrote
You’re a vaush fan. This guy is your people. It’s not like he’s denying the Holocaust. A lot of socialists feel the same way about the Uyghur issue (for the record I don’t have a stance)
[deleted] t1_iy94e68 wrote
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[deleted] t1_iy97wk8 wrote
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uraffuroos t1_iyb2qij wrote
more proof than China or China-Affiliated mouthpieces.
appsnaple t1_iyeyy69 wrote
all his comments are defending China. Given every response to him got downvoted, he must have came here as part of brigade.
bingbongski t1_iy9cvhw wrote
So you trust some state sponsored media source from China saying it’s not happening?
appsnaple t1_iyeyxhx wrote
all his comments are defending China. Given every response to him got downvoted, he must have came here as part of brigade.
ThreadbareHalo t1_iy9ly0r wrote
While it’s always good to question I don’t know that anyone is posting a reasonable alternative. It seems the only thing people WOULD accept is a China funded research group which… seems ridiculous on its face if they’re the ones doing it. It’s not ok if the proof comes from Australia or the US or England or… only if it comes from the groups which have a particular interest in NOT investigating this issue. The people passionate about this particular issue are of course going to be interrelated because it’s not like xinjiang Uyghur investigations are like… Harry Potter fandoms where there’s going to be multiple independent ones cropping up spontaneously. Those interested in Investigating human rights abuses in a particular region of China is going to be a pretty niche set of people.
Lollmfaowhatever t1_iy9po8f wrote
It's not a niche set of people at all, it's people like these.
Just seems to me like there is a deliberate attempt to obfuscate any info from Xinjiang so we can classify people working there whatever we need to further our political objectives.
I also looked at the ASPI organization from Australia, it's also, surprise, funded directly by the U.S. defense industry like Lockheed Martin. IDK, if anything is funded by U.S. money these days, I just assume it's bullshit.
I even looked up the Uyghur Tribunal hearings and I could only make it 20 min in before I had to turn it off, and well, there's a reason they turned off the comments for that vod.
ThreadbareHalo t1_iy9sa6v wrote
I would argue our political objectives to do what? China getting mad over this and stopping supply of cheap goods would devastate the us economy. I keep seeing “we’re doing this for political reasons!” Used as an argument but I don’t understand how it’s a logical one. Looking too deeply into foreign cheap labor in general would destroy the us economy how is it possibly in our political interest to do so?
If the US wanted to get into a tiff with china they could point to very clear broad human rights abuses done against the citizenry at large… they don’t need to focus on one minority group that the majority of the country could care less about. It doesn’t make sense when you think about the ramifications of pissing off the supplier you politically need to sustain your own wealth. Why would any politician risk ruining the trade agreements they likely need to maintain their own rich lifestyles?
[deleted] t1_iy9z2o1 wrote
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ThreadbareHalo t1_iya80gu wrote
… respectfully a bunch of those statements seem very specific talking points on this subject that would be surprising for a random person just happening to comment on this thread to know…
And a lot of them, specifically the huwaii comment in particular seem like talking points in a general narrative rather than something specific to this particular topic. Are we keeping to this topic or are we peppering general statements with the hope of making an emotional argument rather than one that stays on point?
There’s no argument that makes sense in tanking xinjiang for its solar panels. The investigation into xinjiang occurred years before their solar panel developments were anywhere close to a main export. Textiles were the primary export when this investigation started and it’s unclear if your argument is that the US wants to disrupt the cheap textile market and that’s why they started these investigations…
PandaBearShenyu t1_iyaxpdl wrote
I like how all of your posts can be summed up as "nuh uh".
ThreadbareHalo t1_iyayh9t wrote
Can they? They’re asking what the logic is for the us getting in on xinjiang’s textile industry when the investigation started. I think that’s a reasonable question for people to ask cause I don’t think the us has expressed interests in becoming a cheap textile manufacturer
I’d be more inclined to believe the logic behind these refutations if A) it wasn’t pretty apparent that some karma mucking was being done cause who on earth is looking this deep into this thread to upvote their response… and B) if the logic was internally consistent. But it isn’t… the US wasn’t interested in the industries xinjiang had when these claims first arose and if the us wanted to stir up trouble why on earth would they choose to do it with a comparably tiny minority group that’s currently as locked down as it can possibly be. Would be like trying to take down the US by riling up the Amish.
PandaBearShenyu t1_iyaynk7 wrote
There is reasonable, then there's wasting everyone's time by being deliberately obtuse like a five year old that just keeps asking "why" to every explanation. You're firmly in the latter.
ThreadbareHalo t1_iyazkev wrote
Respectfully if your argument is “it’s a bad thing to ask why on things that don’t make sense”…. Then your argument seems pretty damn weak. If China is in the right here there should be some logically consistent reasons for those questions. And if people are convinced in the absence of those logically consistent reasons then… ok I guess but they definitely shouldn’t be portraying themselves as the ones “asking for proof”.
Like… if china wants to seem to the world like the reasonable one, this whole “just accept what you’re being told and stop asking questions” mentality is… hoping that a bunch of people are seriously subservient and easily convinced and I don’t think that’s the case for most people nowadays.
Edit: I’m not sure blocking me because you want to preemptively assume what I’m writing is wrong or pointless is the best argument for you being logical or right either…
PandaBearShenyu t1_iyb0etg wrote
Listen, I'm genuinely not interested in getting into this with you since you will just bait me into thinking your long winded talking in circles have any content and waste my time, I'm literally just making an observation.
dxiao t1_iyb30yo wrote
I get where you are coming from, 99% of people on Reddit know nothing about China and only knows how to repeat the article heads lines and western narrative that we see day in and out on Reddit. So when someone that is actually educated about China AND it’s peoples culture, it can certainly catch someone off guard.
This is so typical of Reddit, when one cannot bring up a coherent argument, they resort to attacking their persona and often by going through one’s history to find “evidence” to further justify their internal biases.
Regarding the our interests and the root cause of us messing with xinjiang, it’s simply one of the methods that we use to try to slow down their growth, decreasing the potential competition and market share. We have been trying to slow down China for the last decade but have made little or no progress, they can make high quality products at competitive prices and that is a problem for us. Huawei is a key example here, if we didn’t step in, Huawei would’ve taken over Europe at an communication infrastructure level, this is a huge concern us Americans for obvious reasons. We do not want to fuel the fire(China) anymore, it’s growing so big that it’s becoming a risk hence why we are trying to put the fire out(chips act) or slow it down. Historically, xinjiang has been the corridor for terrorists to enter into China, a small but growing number was starting to become a concern in the 2010s. Many propagandist or conspiracy theorist say that the CIA has a heavy hand in helping the migration of these Muslim terrorists from places like Syria and Yemen into xinjiang in order to disrupt the growth of that region and ultimately China, but this is not a fact. Regardless, I think it’s important to be able to critically think and understand why we as a country are so obsessed with China when there are many many other countries in the world committing much worse atrocities.
ThreadbareHalo t1_iybevsl wrote
I’m unclear about your last sentence. If we’re taking as fact that atrocities ARE happening then as a human being I want them called out. Period. All this conspiracy non-cited stuff about the cia doing this or that or pretending the multi country comments about Huwaii having demonstrable spyware doesn’t exist is secondary. Human beings are being involved in atrocities and we’re at the point of saying “well yeah but why do we care about this one particular atrocity so much”? Wtf?
I honestly can’t understand the sentiment of “yeah atrocities are happening but why are we interested in these atrocities in particular?” They’re atrocities! If they’re not atrocities then China should be eager to show the us for fools and invite the whole world to freely and without restrictions go to any center they wish. If they ARE atrocities then what are we talking about? None of us normies should be more for ANY government, US or china, to the point of wanting to hand wave away atrocities. I was fucking furious when information on Guantanamo bay came out and I expressed that plainly despite it being my country and despite other countries using it for political capital. Like seriously, what are we doing where atrocities don’t matter if some country might benefit from pointing them out? That’s what human beings are supposed to do. Sociopaths are the ones saying we should ignore it if someone benefits and it would make us look bad.
I’d be fine it more atrocities around the world were called out… including ones in the us. Go freaking nuts, maybe they’ll stop doing it then. That’s the only sane perspective a normal human being should possible possess.
dxiao t1_iyblkxb wrote
I agree, all atrocities should be called out and actions taken against, but that is a very ideological view point and not realistic. Countries and their political bodies have interests, if the calling out and action would not further those interests, then these political bodies have no desire to do so. That is unfortunately how most of the world works.
China did open up and allow investigators in and have done so recently again. Michelle Bachelet, former head of the UN visited and wrote a lengthy report dated as recent as august 31st 2022. Guess what, you cant find one instance where the word genocide is used and unlike most people, I actually read all 48 pages and it’s references, which a lot were anecdotal. Like a Uyghur woman said this or a Uyghur man said that. There is certainly some human rights impacted, like to be able to freely mobilize or practice religion in an enclosed private space en masse, these are just some examples but not all. This isn’t a genocide, concentration camps are not the same as re-education camps. Do re education camps suck and probably push or breaks the boundaries of human rights, most likely. But China isn’t gassing up and killing millions of Muslims. Anyways, I digress, my point is that countries do and should care for their self interest, it’s where those interest lie that matters. It’s how we advance and further ourselves, as a country, that matters.
ThreadbareHalo t1_iybmh95 wrote
It concerns me that we’re discussing that unless the word “genocide” is used that it’s not a big deal. The words “crimes against humanity” were used. That’s still a big deal.
We are just two random people on a social media network… why on earth are we discussing “political bodies having interests”? We’re not part of the government. Why the hell would we be discussing this topic like we are?!
It’s insane that unless people are literally being gassed to death that that doesn’t warrant discussion and a coordinated effort to stop it. You’re supposed to, as a human being, stop that before it gets anywhere close to that.
dxiao t1_iybnf9r wrote
Even if people were being gassed to death, starving to death by the hundreds of thousands, massacred due to religion, those with power wouldn’t act unless it aligned with their political entity and agenda.
Im curious how you think we as average citizens are suppose to stop it, things occurring outside of our reach. Im not saying we shouldn’t, im asking how.
ThreadbareHalo t1_iybo5r9 wrote
I can tell you the first thing we can do as average citizens which is to not jump to saying things like “we need more proof” on social media when we’re taking it as given that atrocities and crimes against humanity are happening. Because that appears to be done in an attempt to minimize what we’re agreeing is a crime against humanity which seems a super weird thing for a person to do.
Asking anyone to figure out how to solve governmentally driven atrocities before we can begin to discuss those atrocities plainly and without hypocritical “well there are other atrocities in the world too” stuff seems a request that ONLY benefits the people doing the atrocity.
dxiao t1_iyboiap wrote
That’s fair but facts also matter, that’s where proof comes in.
But what happens after, regardless of proof? Taking the Yemen famine for example, where tens of millions of people are starving to death.
ThreadbareHalo t1_iybrvxv wrote
Yes, that IS where proof comes in. Which is why it’s beyond bizarre that china is not openly and freely letting people tour the sites whenever they want without chaperones. Having chaperones that direct the investigation there fundamentally makes this a problem. China could pull a masterful turn on the west by opening up those locations completely and saying “here is proof there is no validity to your claims, we aren’t scared”.
But they aren’t.
They’re doing the stupid guilty looking thing that’s making everyone question using them as a supplier MORE than they were before. They’re demanding terms. It’s like someone being accused of stealing stuff by their neighbor and when people in the neighborhood ask to search their house they say “ok but I have to be with you the whole time, if you ask questions I don’t like then I’ll threaten you with retaliation and I get to choose what rooms you look in. And by the way if you talk about this it’s because you actually want my job”. You CAN do that, but it’s not out of bounds to say that to everyone else that makes you look super guilty of something. You can’t have both doing stuff that makes you look super guilty AND demand that people can’t talk about how you look super guilty. That’s ridiculous and deserves to be ridiculed. If china doesn’t want to be ridiculed and have this constant thing over their heads it’s entirely within Chinas power to fix that by just doing anything other than the ridiculous saber rattling and social media influencing that they’ve been focusing on instead of… yknow… solving the crime against humanity in their backyard.
dxiao t1_iybtwuj wrote
What you are saying is from the perspective of a westerner, China and it’s people does not care to prove anything to the world. That’s where you are mistaken, to think they feel like they have a need to prove something to the west. They are not scared, they are just not going to play this game and just continue to grow. China is going to do what is best for China. You say they are being ridiculed but that’s only because of the media you are exposed to. Muslim countries are coming to chinas defense on this topic. Asia continues to partner and grow economically with China. Only we in the west and our Allies think they are being ridiculed. China’s GDP continues to grow year over year, inflation is ranked the lowest in the world, they simply don’t care what we have to say.
ThreadbareHalo t1_iybvc6e wrote
Respectfully they very much do want to prove something to the world or else they wouldn’t have farms posting prepared refutations on social media, refusing to let people have unsupervised interviews with Uyghurs inside the country and threatening other countries with retaliation if they talk about it. If they’re trying to prove they don’t care and are just going to do what’s best for them they’re doing a phenomenally poor job of showing it. All of their actions scream a need for approval. You don’t need to do any of that shit when you’re strong and confident in yourself. You do that when you’re self conscious about how people view you.
All these ridiculously transparent karma manipulations and comments that very obviously aren’t trying to come to an objective and consistent argument, but just are making whatever argument seems to win even if it acknowledges crimes against humanity… I don’t know why people would do that. It seems such an admission of weakness and cringy wanting people to view them positively to everyone. Please view us as the picked on country, don’t worry about the crimes against humanity… yeesh I honestly don’t get why the people doing it don’t recognize that. I can’t imagine what bs they’re told that makes it seem worthwhile and not embarrassing.
Lollmfaowhatever t1_iyd2yol wrote
lmfao, I agree with the other guy, it's literally a waste of time to talk to you. Instead of engaging and discussing, you just hide behind your rEsPecTfulY and try to get the other person to agree with your jargon and throw a hissy fit when they don't.
Bro the see see pee is 100% here to downvote you because your just that important. lmfao
Lollmfaowhatever t1_iyd2jyj wrote
I'd much prefer if we just said this out loud as a reason and it would be perfectly respectable and valid. Like:
"Yeah we can't find any reason to believe Huawei has done jack but that don't mean they won't so we not gunna let them build our critical infra".
Instead they go with "bro trust me huawei has totes spied on literally every one. Oh what's that? German, Britain and Canadian spy agencies came out and said they found nothin? Forget about it, chynaaaa scawyy".
Legit that stuff pissed me off. I don't know why they can't just act like adults and instead behave like high school rumor mongering bitches about really serious international relations topics.
Lollmfaowhatever t1_iyd37g0 wrote
Respectfully, either put up or shut up. Like what the other poster said, you legit have been talking in circles for hours wasting my time.
ThreadbareHalo t1_iydl17a wrote
I mean you could prove me wrong really easily by condemning the crimes against humanity that the other poster stipulated. Or saying a few things that about how the zero Covid policy is overreaching and a failing policy.
Edit: lol, so to be clear you can’t say that. A clear seemingly easy option to prove me wrong and instead runs and blocks me. Weird.
Lollmfaowhatever t1_iydlpqs wrote
The only crime against humanity are your posts and argument style tbh.
"pls say im rite plssss".
AnandaPriestessLove t1_iyautsd wrote
Indeed. Most curious that a regular passerby should happen to know such details about China. Not like it'd have anything whatsoever to do with any Chinese gov't sponsored troll farms. Not at all. Pay it no mind. All pigs are equal, but some pigs are more equal than others.
Lollmfaowhatever t1_iyd0n0x wrote
Don't book me for wrongthink bro.
AnandaPriestessLove t1_iye6j17 wrote
Yeah, we don't want to end up in the Chinese concentration camps......errr....Reeducation Facilities. Ugh.
Lollmfaowhatever t1_iyehems wrote
education would actually be quite beneficial for you tbh
appsnaple t1_iyeyx55 wrote
all his comments are defending China. Given every response to him got downvoted, he must have came here as part of brigade.
joeg26reddit t1_iyalkst wrote
CCP ASTROTURFER ALERT
420ohms t1_iybsqjp wrote
Show me where on the doll the "CCP" touched you
Lollmfaowhatever t1_iyd62jz wrote
Yeah bro, you got me. ccp here.
appsnaple t1_iyeyvuo wrote
Yeah, all his comments are defending China. Given every response to him got downvoted, he must have came here as part of brigade.
US_FixNotScrewitUp t1_iy9kxkf wrote
The problem is Western companies offshoring to China - for anything. Sure, slavery sucks, but then stop outsourcing to China (or any other country that pulls this). The Chinese government will always be creeps where it sees fit.
steeveperry t1_iyan63p wrote
Why use Chinese slave labor camps when we can use American slave labor camps?
MasterpieceBrave420 t1_iy9va1c wrote
It's surprising they train their prisoners enough to do that job.
The US prison slaves mostly do manual labor.
bitfriend6 t1_iya6y2i wrote
American prison slaves had to actually commit a crime to go to jail, and had to be convicted by a jury and have the ability to appeal. The military did not go door to door separating them from their families and putting them into a forced labor camp because of their religion. Excusing it because they also got to learn how to work a mill, just like the English made the Irish do, is an incredibly disgusting thing to say and defends genocide. Hitler's SS also taught jewish women how to make gunpowder at Auschwitz, are you going to defend that as well?
[deleted] t1_iyal3o0 wrote
>American prison slaves had to actually commit a crime to go to jail
America has 5 times as many prisoners per capita as the rest of the world. We have more prisoners than China and they have a billion more people than us. So 1 of 2 things must be true:
- Americans are genetically different from the rest of the world and commit crime 5x as often as everyone else
or
- America wrongly imprisons 5x as many people as everyone else.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybdr4s wrote
You are changing the subject. Legally Convicted people, are completely different from the other examples.
Whitewing424 t1_iybu290 wrote
And what the Chinese are doing is quite legal there too. It's almost like something being legal has absolutely no bearing on whether it's right or wrong at all.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybuofr wrote
You are missing the point. Knocking down doors to steal people and committing a neoHolocaust and actually arresting and convicting criminals are two completely separate things. Nice try komerade.
Whitewing424 t1_iybveum wrote
Arresting and convicting people who have done nothing wrong because you wrote a law to declare them criminals isn't really as different as you think it is.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iyby5cf wrote
I didn’t write the laws sweetheart, that’s not how a Democratic Republic works.
Good day.
Whitewing424 t1_iyd8dv7 wrote
I never said you personally wrote them, surely you aren't this dense. You can't be this stupid.
[deleted] t1_iye3zzz wrote
The prisoners in china are legally detained as well.
MasterpieceBrave420 t1_iya9pt2 wrote
"Crime" like possessing 1 gram of weed or jaywalking or just being black and talking back to a white police officer who choses to charge you with resisting arrest because he couldn't find something to plant on you.
I'm not impressed with your whitewashed version of American history.
The only one excusing anything here is you and your bullshit white conservative revisionist version of American justice.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybdvph wrote
Nice try, komerade
bagonmaster t1_iyb4x3e wrote
The vast majority were not convicted by a jury either because they were railroaded into a deal, they had a bad lawyer, or they just didn’t know their rights. There is no due process for the poor
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybe8n2 wrote
And, it’s the same for Everyone.
Yup, exceptions happen. Everyone gets a lawyer, if they want. If you don’t wanna pay, don’t play.
bagonmaster t1_iybk05u wrote
You’ve definitely never interacted with the legal system if you think it’s easy to get a public defender
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybkhtg wrote
I have, indeed, used the Public Defender. In another life.
It’s free. Not What, When or How YOU want it. If you broke the LAW, then you’re responsible for it. It’s free for a reason.
bagonmaster t1_iybkzf5 wrote
I seriously doubt that unless it was like 40 years ago. There are restrictions on what types of crimes are entitled to a public defender, you have to earn under the federal poverty line in order to qualify for one, and there still aren’t enough defenders for everyone who is eligible.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybn9af wrote
Well random internet stranger, I just wanted you to know that I, in fact, do not care what you believe. I lived it. Different crime, different criteria. Bottom line, if you have to wait for a lawyer prior to the trial, then it’s worth pointing out, you get what you’re paying for. You may not be tried without legal representation or advice. As I said, not everyone gets what they want, when they want it or how it is done. Everyone, has the same Rights.
bagonmaster t1_iybosqo wrote
Everyone doesn’t have the same rights, that’s the whole point. We essentially have 2 separate justice systems, you have 100% never interacted with it in any way especially not as someone who needed a public defender
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybq2mi wrote
Look, I told you that it’s happened to me, more than once.
Just because YOU SAY something, doesn’t mean it is true. I am not gonna explain anything else to you, as you tell me that I’m wrong. Just because you watched an episode of Chicago PD & know someone who once worked in a bodega, didn’t actually make you an expert. Take your younger self outside and, after you pick up your double soy latte and scone, actually make it your daily routine to get your own life. Oh, and fuck off.
[deleted] t1_iybxzwu wrote
[removed]
Whitewing424 t1_iybtuxu wrote
So you want to defend the idea that the rich should be more able to avoid penalties from the justice system by arguing that wealth should be able to buy you better defense, and the best defenders should be reserved for the wealthiest clients. It's almost like the rich live by a totally different set of rules than the rest of us.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybv13o wrote
You are Never gonna change my mind, my life (much more than you) experiences and actions and achievements.
You can sit in grandma’s basement and pontificate about shit You know nothing about.
Good Day.
steeveperry t1_iyan1gz wrote
“An analyst at Deloitte who used to work as a government spook says China bad, recommends that US manufacturers purchase solar supplies from China.”
ahfoo t1_iyc4yhd wrote
There is nothing more evil in this world than solar panels. Do you know why that is? It's because oil does two or even three trillion in global revenues annually. That's why.
The US is absolutely dependent upon oil not for transportation but for the foundation of its economy and military power which go hand-in-hand:
https://old.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/u169xi/if_the_us_dollar_is_no_longer_the_currency_which/
The powers that be in the US would have you believe that solar panels are made from the unborn fetuses of sex trafficked slaves. . . no --it's worse than that-- they're made of murdered puppies tied up in bags and drowned in a river. Solar panels are made of children's tears. Solar panels hate Santa Claus. The real cause of Covid is solar panels. Solar panels murder sea otters for fun and beat baby snow seals with clubs. Solar panels said your mama's ass is fat. Solar panels eat all the cookies and leave none for anybody else. Goddam those fucking solar panels. There is nothing as evil as a solar panel!
ModernEraCaveman t1_iyd6mzf wrote
MuSLims😠
ChiNa MusLiMs🤩
anti-torque t1_iy92u9p wrote
Wait... so they're the job-makers, and we should defer to them?
Or is this different than Ralph Reed in the Marianas, because those Chinese people don't count, since they made clothes that said, "Made in the USA?"
There could be a third option: It's all wrong, and a lot of people in the USA don't care about it.
iCantPauseItsOnline t1_iy9a4sq wrote
Or a fourth option -- It's all wrong, and the people who care don't have power, and the people who have power don't care.
anti-torque t1_iydfmpa wrote
Sometimes the people who have power have to clean up after bigger messes than Ralph Reed in the Marianas.
And if you're familiar with that story, that means cleaning up some pretty evil crap.
That doesn't mean the people who have power aren't backed by "a lot" of people who don't care.
Zukiff t1_iyc3uab wrote
I like how all the studies on force labor and genocide about Uyghur never actually have a single researcher on site to verify anything
Oddessuss t1_iyciqt5 wrote
No shit.
China is also a major manufacturer of electronics and turbines used in fossil fuel production as well...
MrMediaShill t1_iy8yatw wrote
China using slave labor in their push for global economic dominance. No shock there, especially since Hershey does it too.
FarrisAT t1_iy97kgo wrote
Puts on AAPL! Oh and TSLA! Oh and GOOG! Oh and MSFT! Oh and AMZN! Oh and every major tech company! Wait...
[deleted] t1_iybefvh wrote
[removed]
Box-by-day t1_iyc5oeh wrote
Democrats and slavery, what a coincydink
monchota t1_iydoly5 wrote
They are being used as slaves for everything.
red_eater_queen t1_iyb5b35 wrote
China could become more powerful appearing instead of looking poor by not paying people.
constantino675 t1_iy987jp wrote
Yes, uyghurs are spread across all manufacturing areas.
They don't wear orange vests, they blend in, there's no way to differentiate them, and that's on purpose
matali t1_iyb3ff2 wrote
I wonder how long until Reddit becomes a CCP apologist?
Active-Sky-M31 t1_iyaw9so wrote
If you commit a heinous crime you should automatically become a slave.
uraffuroos t1_iyb2yq0 wrote
what crime have them committed?
[deleted] t1_iyaua0o wrote
[removed]
uraffuroos t1_iyb2xem wrote
those unshaven terrorists! How dare they pray and read sensitive foreign media!
BocDees t1_iyaizgu wrote
Forced Uyghur labor is being used in China’s _________ supply chain, everybody knows
uraffuroos t1_iyb2ugh wrote
not as many as you think
Revolutionary-Rub671 t1_iy9eabv wrote
No way!!! China is using slavery for industrial purposes?
Why is anyone still surprised lol
Whitewing424 t1_iy9ya3a wrote
And forced prison labor is used by the US in a ludicrous amount of supply chains, but we like to ignore that.