Submitted by Sorin61 t3_z90dii in technology
itchyeyeballs2 t1_iyekxwo wrote
Reply to comment by BallardRex in The days of the hydrogen car are already over by Sorin61
Isn't there also the question of battery manufacturing as well?
Supplying all the stuff that goes into them isn't great for the environment.
lonewolf420 t1_iyen8jt wrote
ownership of a BEV after 1.5 years of ownership is less damaging as a manufacturing and energy use case compared to ICE. Studies have been done on this yet people will still bring up "but mining is bad!" yea we know we just want to do it for resources that won't continue to be worse while we figure out recycling of batteries which can be profitable for their rare earth metals like nickel and cobalt.
Hydrogen was a non-starter simply on the infrastructure side, both generating it (little known fact that 95% of hydrogen is made by steam forming liquid natural gas a byproduct of the hydrocarbon refining cycle) and shipping/storage are not very useful unless you are talking about using it for flight both rockets/airplanes need high impulse energy along with high weight restraints that make batteries not a good energy source.
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>Supplying all the stuff that goes into them isn't great for the environment.
Neither is Hydrogen in its current state, so what's your point? some far off future where we can store liquid hydrogen at room temperatures in some un-obtainium vessel when we have working fusion reactors?
itchyeyeballs2 t1_iyep99q wrote
My point was just that powering the grid is not the only consideration.
Battery tech is still messy and limited IMO, we still need a step change in the capabilities which may or may not come.
lonewolf420 t1_iyes795 wrote
Less messy and limited than hydrogen without the handwaving of electrolysis which isn't how 95% of hydrogen is produced. Hydrogen has its place, but not for cars IMO I think its a foolcell where people like to pretend its green but never look into how hydrogen is actually produced to be consumed. If you really look into it, hydrogen used for making "green steel" is often the only place you find electrolysis used at an industrial scale to get the "green" title, everywhere else just uses oil refining byproduct hydrogen when they crack liquid natural gas by the steam forming processes.
At the end of the day, mining for energy and resources still happens with consumer vehicles hydrogen or otherwise and to try and say its more messy to build EVs than hydrogen fuel cells is missing the important fact that hydrogen production is an extra step over just using LNG turbines to generate energy. They then move the goal post saying "well we can use it for energy generation and hybrids/BEVs to transport" and sure it will work but then again why not just use LNG instead of cracking it for hydrogen?
We would also still need to mine materials to build hydrogen cars, so just because it doesn't use rare earths which are already trying to be squeezed out of the battery cell supply chain due to cost? what/how exactly does hydrogen fuel cells benefit from less resource intensive mining or less limited? I feel like hydrogen is more limited due to not being a significant part of our infrastructure and how capital intensive it would be to add it in beyond just renewable energy generation excess storage of which there are plenty of other methods of less complexity.
BallardRex t1_iyelftn wrote
The damage to the environment resulting from extraction of REE isn’t an existential issue in the way that greenhouse gasses are.
itchyeyeballs2 t1_iyemujj wrote
Sure but how we power our grid isn't the only question.
I also wonder what effect battery life and potentially needing to scrap cars sooner than ICE versions will have on overall energy consumption.
BallardRex t1_iyen1wz wrote
Cars are already the most recycled thing on Earth, and batteries full of valuable minerals are no exception.
DonQuixBalls t1_iyesivf wrote
Electric drive trains are designed to outlive combustion engines.
doalittletapdance t1_iyexcu0 wrote
Electric drive trains are powered by diesel generators.
You'd have to run power lines along the rails to be able to do away with that. no battery is going to run a train the distance those things move
DonQuixBalls t1_iyey0s0 wrote
The comment I responded to specifically said cars.
doalittletapdance t1_iyf6ur3 wrote
Ah ya got me
TheLazyD0G t1_iyeljqb wrote
But the batteries are very recycleable.
The ev fires are another story can take up to 1 montg under water to fully extinguish
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