Submitted by firefly-metaverse t3_10oayad in space
Comments
The_Solar_Oracle t1_j6g4s8d wrote
I think people tend to underestimate just how many Shuttle launches there were in the past in spite of its great size and cost!
nickel_dime t1_j6i5t2l wrote
Indeed. And if you plotted number of people sent into space instead of launches, the Space Shuttle era would really stand out.
Anthony_Pelchat t1_j6ictzg wrote
>nd if you plotted number of people sent into space instead of launches, the Space Shuttle era would really stand out.
I'm wondering how that would have looked in the last two years as well? Dragon is now sending 4 at a time frequently vs 2-3 at a time on Soyuz. Not going to make a drastic difference, but should look interesting as well.
Marxbrosburner t1_j6ifrli wrote
How many went up at a time in the shuttle?
CrimsonEnigma t1_j6kgz4e wrote
Usually 7.
Early missions were less, but it usually flew with a full component (technically it could do 8, but they had to attach an extra seat whenever they did).
Anthony_Pelchat t1_j6jxooq wrote
Typically 4 but frequently more (going off memory). Up to 8 at a time.
[deleted] t1_j6j1728 wrote
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[deleted] t1_j6jj0j4 wrote
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corsairealgerien t1_j6dn6zx wrote
It will be quite something if China end up 'winning' the current 'space race' by building a permanent hub on the Moon, or getting a person to Mars, before anyone else after coming from behind like this. NASA is back on a 'war' footing now though, and Russia is a little distracted right now, so let's see what happens. Would be better if everyone just cooperated, but that ship has absolutely sailed for the near future.
MisinformedGenius t1_j6eootv wrote
I mean, NASA did the same thing - we were way behind the Soviets when Kennedy started the Apollo program.
corsairealgerien t1_j6fianl wrote
I recall reading, or maybe hearing on a podcast, somewhere that NASA top branch were not aware before JFK announced it and learned about it from his speech - but I've not been able to find anything corroborating that anywhere I searched. I'm sure I read it somewhere and did not dream it.
bremidon t1_j6hyqcq wrote
>we were way behind the Soviets
That is a myth that somehow keeps getting wilder as the years go on.
The States were, on a purely tech basis, either even or slightly ahead of the Soviets the entire time.
The Soviets had three huge advantages though. They had Korolev, they had a great spy network, and they had a system that let them put safety a bit lower in the priority list.
This let them try stuff earlier. The usual game plan was to figure out when America planned to do something and then throw everything into doing it first. Korolev was an absolute genius at making it work. All in all, it was a strategy that seemed to bear fruit.
The problem with this strategy was exposed with the race to the moon. This was not something you could just throw together at the last minute. Even worse, Korolev died, leaving the program without the guy who somehow always figured out how to make it happen.
Even the Soviets realized the futility of it all. After a half-hearted attempt to continue with the program after the U.S. got to the moon, the Soviets had to give up completely on that.
They did develop some pretty cool engines and had a decent LEO program that went on up until the Soviet Union fell.
But the idea that the U.S. was behind or *way* behind the Soviets at any point is simply not consistent with the facts.
MisinformedGenius t1_j6ix7ch wrote
What? The fact is that they were the first nation to launch an object into orbit, the first nation to launch a man into orbit, the first nation to launch an object into orbit around the Moon, and many other firsts. They had put two satellites in orbit by the time our first attempt blew up on the pad.
Yes, of course they were behind the US by the time we got to the Moon, but when Kennedy announced the Apollo program, we were without a doubt behind them. Can you name anything at all we did before the Soviets before, say, 1965?
The idea that they were behind us yet somehow would figure out what we were already doing and beat us to the punch despite our head start is nonsensical to say the least.
bremidon t1_j6ltp1n wrote
>What? The fact is that they were the first nation to launch an object into orbit, the first nation to launch a man into orbit, the first nation to launch an object into orbit around the Moon, and many other firsts. They had put two satellites in orbit by the time our first attempt blew up on the pad.
Well, your username fits at least.
Yes, those are all true, but also incredibly misleading, and apparently you failed to understand what I wrote.
Again, once more for the kids who came in late at the back: the Soviets would find out when the States were going to do something and then throw everything at beating them to that. Go back and read my previous post for more information. The summary is that they were never technologically ahead of the States; they were just better at using what they had to get those "firsts" you mentioned.
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>The idea that they were behind us yet somehow would figure out what we were already doing and beat us to the punch despite our head start is nonsensical to say the least.
You may find it nonsensical, but that is probably because you are misinformed. Go back to your studies, actually read dry and boring historical records, and then it will make more sense.
The51stDivision t1_j6fa9dg wrote
Even if China builds the first moon base, Americans can just move the goalpost and say the finish line is actually landing on Mars. If the USA first lands on Mars, Chinese can just say the finish line is actually building a Mars base… or vice versa.
IIRC neither the CNSA nor NASA have claimed anyone’s launching any “space race.” The whole thing is just fanned up by politicians and media and doesn’t actually mean anything.
corsairealgerien t1_j6fhgva wrote
I agree with your first point, it's what the US and Soviets did in the 60s, but the NASA chief did recently literally say they were in a space race with China: "It is a fact: we're in a space race," the NASA administrator told Politico in an interview published Jan. 1. "And it is true that we better watch out that they don't get to a place on the moon under the guise of scientific research. And it is not beyond the realm of possibility that they say, 'Keep out, we're here, this is our territory.'"
ChronicBuzz187 t1_j6hv3ot wrote
>And it is not beyond the realm of possibility that they say, 'Keep out, we're here, this is our territory.'"
The small-mindedness of this.... going to the moon or mars not to advance the entire species but to say "Look, we're the best and smartest humans on earth because we somehow made it here" when you really just build upon the work of generations that came before.
And we always have to "beat each other there" because... well... we don't really know except so we can bang out chest and tell everybody how great we are. No real point in it but that never prevented us from doing it, right?
bookers555 t1_j6m7eri wrote
Because that's how the human brain is wired, it works best under competition, it's simply a matter of evolution.
If the first space race hadn't ended we would have seen Moon bases a long time ago.
Dutch-Spaniard t1_j6g6bm7 wrote
>Keep out, we’re here, this is our territory.
That’s the most China thing I’ve heard
bookers555 t1_j6gxvgd wrote
The current space race is the only reason the SLS finally got off the ground.
[deleted] t1_j6dxtln wrote
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corsairealgerien t1_j6fi3wz wrote
Yes, probably. JFK actually proposed a joint US-Soviet manned moon mission, which was well received by the Soviets but never really advanced since he was assassinated a couple of months later, and LBJ shelved any plans for cooperation committing instead to Apollo.
KiwieeiwiK t1_j6jjy55 wrote
the current timeline has NASA getting humans back to the moon slightly before China but that could change
Either way I don't think either space program sees the other as an adversary in any way, it's purely political games. China would happily collaborate with the US on space tech, however it is against US law for NASA to cooperate with China
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pompanoJ t1_j6fv0xa wrote
Wow, this really underscores how consistent the Russians have been with their manned space program. Decades of almost constant levels.
The_Solar_Oracle t1_j6g4fpt wrote
There are two important things to keep in mind, however.
Firstly, several Soviet missions failed merely because autodocking of Soyuz spacecraft failed. Even when it did work, there were many issues that persisted for years.
Secondly, many Salyut 6 and 7 launches existed for no other sake then to give the incumbent station crews a new spacecraft.
At the time and even now, Soyuz spacecraft only have a limited recommended amount of time they can safely remain fueled and active before they 'retire' and must return. To overcome this, the Soviets launched fresh spacecraft with, "guest" cosmonauts who would swap seat liners and return to Earth with the old spacecraft. The Soviets in turn tended to fill these fresh Soyuz with foreign provided cosmonauts under the Interkosmos program. Rather cynically, they were not expected to do much and given little-to-no training on operating the actual spacecraft; such tasks were left solely to the Soviet cosmonauts who accompanied them.
On a related note, the Soyuz 12 and 13 "free flights" occurred in the wake of Salyut 2's failure, as the Soviets had already prepared the spacecraft for flight and would not have Salyut 3 up in orbit before they reached their sell-by-date.
decomposition_ t1_j6f21o0 wrote
How could this be? Didn’t the US launch astronauts to the ISS every year?
backdoor27 t1_j6f9c9e wrote
Between space shuttle retirement in 2011 and SpaceX in 2020 US astronauts had to take Russian Soyuz rockets to the ISS
corsairealgerien t1_j6fibce wrote
I, shamefully, learned this from the Big Bang Theory show....
bucolucas t1_j6irtj4 wrote
Don't ever be ashamed of watching a show you like, and don't shame others for watching a show they liked. Big Bang Theory was incredibly popular. I really hate the show myself but I can see the appeal.
corsairealgerien t1_j6iw36b wrote
I was half-joking, but I wouldn't say I am a fan of the show. I just like watching 20-minute sit coms to sleep to. I've been through a lot of them, including that one.
firefly-metaverse OP t1_j6dgwgc wrote
Reposting this again according to the rule for images on Sunday. The source and all the data is here:
https://spacestatsonline.com/launches/manned
and another relate chart with the number of astronauts launched by year:
Jakebsorensen t1_j6fowyl wrote
Are SpaceX launches counted as a U.S. launch, or not included in the chart?
Incredible_James525 t1_j6frqph wrote
Why would they not be included as us launches?
Jakebsorensen t1_j6fruc6 wrote
Because they’re a private company
mangalore-x_x t1_j6hsmif wrote
If they launch US astronauts to the ISS it would be a NASA mission though.
As a private company they just provide the product that allows this mission to be done.
BetterCallPaul2 t1_j6ghsk8 wrote
They must be. Aren't they the only ones to launch astronauts from US soil since the shuttle? Also they are launching NASA astronauts under a NASA contract so it makes sense to count them.
texast999 t1_j6g48l8 wrote
I think they are included on this chart.
bluereptile t1_j6hdot9 wrote
They are.
NASA hasn't had a manned launch since 2011 when the shuttle retired. So all the. Lie the last few years is commercial.
Reddit-runner t1_j6hjf9x wrote
It seems to also include SpaceX launches not done for NASA.
Because so far there have only been 2 crewed SpaceX to the ISS per year, but the chart shows 3 launches in 2021 and 2022.
Decronym t1_j6hysrd wrote
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
|Fewer Letters|More Letters| |-------|---------|---| |CNSA|Chinese National Space Administration| |LEO|Low Earth Orbit (180-2000km)| | |Law Enforcement Officer (most often mentioned during transport operations)| |SLS|Space Launch System heavy-lift|
^(3 acronyms in this thread; )^(the most compressed thread commented on today)^( has 14 acronyms.)
^([Thread #8496 for this sub, first seen 30th Jan 2023, 13:45])
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StreetBobber103 t1_j6koqz7 wrote
I thought India and a few other European countries had space race interests?
NDaveT t1_j6p2jj9 wrote
I don't think either have launched manned missions themselves.
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Landrycd t1_j6k46ri wrote
Great info, but I’m not a fan of the stacked bars method of display.
[deleted] t1_j6kfbwh wrote
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vague_diss t1_j6idl9f wrote
I feel like Russia may have just been launching empty cans or something. Their consistency is impressive but it might just have been painted cardboard boxes all this time.
bookers555 t1_j6m7kj9 wrote
No, it's just for almost an entire decade they handled all transport to and from the ISS.
Marxbrosburner t1_j6fzbzy wrote
You can clearly see the Space Shuttle era on this graph.