MattSpokeLoud t1_izps7vs wrote on December 10, 2022 at 10:52 PM

Most modern socialists argue for worker coops, municipally owned utilities and health services, and limited nationalized industry, such as nationalized health insurance (M4A), perhaps oil and other natural resources (usually motivated by climate change), but that is usually the extent of the centralization. Of course, there are the authoritarian strains of socialism, such as those in China and who were in the USSR, but that is not the main stream 'Left' anymore in the US anymore, by far.

I think you would be surprised how much infighting there is. If one is critically minded, it is hard to find yourself in agreement, let alone an echo chamber.

fingin t1_izqggor wrote on December 11, 2022 at 2:08 AM

Yeah and if you examine these infamous examples of "failed socialism", you usually just see that most people simply don't have a great grasp of history and political discourse. For example, people often point to the Soviet Union as an example of socialism's failures- the Soviet Union, where people had no control over the means of production and were repressed under a facist police state.

DruAndrew t1_iztiec3 wrote on December 11, 2022 at 7:07 PM

Yeah, the USSR got rid of the actual Marxists pretty quickly once the "communist party" got power. Authoritarianism is the antithesis of everything Marx wrote about.

MattSpokeLoud t1_izu4x7s wrote on December 11, 2022 at 9:33 PM

Unfortunately, the theory to support authoritarianism comes from Engels, not Marx. This is the origin of the largest split in socialist movements, leading to anarchist and communist identities to differentiate their perspective on the state.

DruAndrew t1_izu6vny wrote on December 11, 2022 at 9:46 PM

Totally. That is why I don't consider "communists" to be Marxist. That is why I give pushback on people suggesting that USSR, China, and the rest are "Marxist." in common parlance, the term "Marxist" is just another way of saying "I haven't ready anything by or about Marx, but I don't like authoritarians."

Dude isn't an easy read, so I get not wanting to take the time. but it is frustrating that a good theory has become a straw-boogyman. I'm with the constitutional peasants. do you know of an Anarcho-syndicalist commune I could join?

MattSpokeLoud t1_izu8jo8 wrote on December 11, 2022 at 9:58 PM

I can agree with that, which is one reason why I often don't identify as just a Marxist, because Marx was not correct on everything and newer philosophers have added much, such as the Frankfurt School of philosophers and the field of Critical Theory.

Google for cooperatives in your area, I am a member of a food coop and support local CSA associations/orgs. As for labor unions, see if one exists in a larger federation, if not there is an achievable process to start your own union.

Anarcho-syndicalism would be a long-term project that involves the proliferation of the above organizations as well as further cooperation between them.