Submitted by mocha_sweetheart t3_zw253n in singularity
Surur t1_j1zszbi wrote
Reply to comment by IonizingKoala in Driverless cars and electric cars being displayed as the pinnacle of future transportation engineering is just… wrong. Car-based infrastructure is inefficient, bad for the environment and we already have better technologies in other fields that could help more. An in depth analysis by mocha_sweetheart
> Also the cost of self-driving cars is relevant, because that was your response to the whole working-while-commuting point.
Are you forgetting which sub you are on? Why is the current price of self-driving, which is not practically available yet, relevant?
> I'm just under no illusions that it's somehow an efficient and effective commute method for everybody in a dense city like Manhattan/Paris/Tokyo.
The issue is not driving, it's the density of the city. The solution is not promoting even greater and greater density by laying on denser and denser transport. It is promoting development outside of the city, so people can travel in security and comfort using personal transport. Why put people through commuter hell so they can promote the growth of Paris?
And people love driving btw (and if you think this is a biased source, read a paper all about why people love car culture here).
IonizingKoala t1_j20owrn wrote
Lower density is expensive. You're spreading out infrastructure costs to less households and businesses, increasing commute times (sure, cars are faster than the bus, but in urban areas is usually the same speed as the subway and walking and cycling), and generally taking up a larger environmental footprint.
Of course I don't want to live in Hong Kong or Singapore core, that's way too crammed. But if we look at Tokyo, which is second in urban development size only to NYC, and is the same size as the state of Connecticut, their population density is not high at all. 200-400 US cities would have higher population density than the Greater Tokyo Area.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you want is a medium density, larger urban area kinda like Greater Tokyo or NYC, with everyone free to drive wherever they want with manageable traffic.
This exists in reality, except car ownership is pretty low for Tokyo, and in NYC's car ownership is mostly centred in the suburbs. https://edc.nyc/article/new-yorkers-and-their-cars
So when people are free to choose, only 10-40% of households in your ideal metro area (can't say city cause it's too sparse) choose car ownership. That's not out of poverty, Tokyo and NYC are among the highest earning cities in the world.
What makes those two cities livable and world-class is the public transit that connects the various boroughs together. NYC needs to improve in this regard because they don't have a ring line yet, but Tokyo is pretty good at it. I also picked two random spots in Tokyo, and though car is faster by 10 minutes when it's quiet, it's an hour slower if there's traffic.
The Greater Toronto Area is an example of what happens when you have a medium density, large metro area without good inter-borough public transit (and mediocre intra-borough PT outside of Toronto proper). You have all the high costs of urban living (you gotta pay for each borough's budgets as a separate city, as well as the huge road infrastructure costs) with few of the benefits (suburbs are isolated, you get this very Americanized feel of restrictive zoning and stroads, etc).
You can't pick and choose what aspects of our reality to address; the current price of Self-Driving (nevermind it's not SAE Level 5 yet) matters because it's real life. Just because the topic is Singularitarianism doesn't mean we are allowed to toss money and resource scarcity out the window. Or else I can say hey, singularity, cities won't be necessary anymore because we can live in underground pods and interact in Web 5.0.
Surur t1_j217966 wrote
> Or else I can say hey, singularity, cities won't be necessary anymore because we can live in underground pods and interact in Web 5.0.
Obviously - the person who brought this topic here was an idiot obviously.
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you want is a medium density, larger urban area kinda like Greater Tokyo or NYC, with everyone free to drive wherever they want with manageable traffic.
No one would call Tokyo on NYC medium density. NYC has the highest PT use in USA. Its obviously a terrible example of a livable city, as is Tokyo, famous for its PT crush.
Polycentric development is what's needed to give people the room they need to breathe.
In the future we will need less farmland, and we should reclaim that for living space.
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