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matthewisonreddit t1_jb56lr9 wrote

Reply to comment by [deleted] in Humans Started Riding Horses 5,000 Years Ago, New Evidence Suggests by geoxol

Do historians think that chariots came before bareback riding?

Surely a chariot requires loads of design and infrastructure while riding requires a relationship and thats it?

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187ninjuh t1_jb5biwo wrote

You need big horses to ride on their back. You can use smaller ones to pull a chariot

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A0ma t1_jb5xkcu wrote

You can even use a little ass

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atomikitten t1_jb6imff wrote

I am betting horses also pulled things before they pulled a person in a chariot.

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PetsArentChildren t1_jb5nanw wrote

Ancient horses were tiny compared to modern horses. More like ponies. Chariots work better with small horses because the chariot bears your weight and you can use multiple horses together.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/medieval-warhorses-were-actually-the-size-of-ponies-180979389/

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cgn-38 t1_jb5s1gh wrote

Yep. A lot of the old roman "dude on horse" statues are hilarious.

Looks like they are riding on a donkey. Because that was just as big as horses got then.

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SparkyDogPants t1_jb6674f wrote

Wdym about donkeys? Most are the same size as horses today

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A_Harmless_Fly t1_jb6attn wrote

Sure you aren't thinking of mules?

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Nolsoth t1_jb8msph wrote

I've seen some big bloody donkeys ( bigger than a pony) but that's probably more due to genetic trait selection over the last couple thousand years

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Jamma-Lam t1_jb6amn4 wrote

All these domestic animals were much smaller before we genetically selected for larger and larger animals which took hundreds of not thousands of years to get giant horses like Clydesdales.

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tossawaybb t1_jb6lqzf wrote

Just a couple hundred really. Selective breeding is typically quite quick, as evidenced by the English bulldog. Wasn't that long ago they were just a little shorter and stouter than regular dogs

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thebeandream t1_jb75601 wrote

Weren’t ancient humans also smaller though? Or was it not proportionate enough to make a difference?

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PetsArentChildren t1_jb7ffnw wrote

The Assyrians and Chinese did develop horseback riding, but each had to invent/adopt new technology in order to do so: the former, the martingale collar, the latter, stirrups. Apparently riding a horse bareback into battle means you’re likely to fall off and get stabbed!

https://www.asor.org/blog/2014/11/17/a-comparative-study-of-the-origins-of-cavalry-in-the-ancient-near-east-and-china/

https://www.shorthistory.org/ancient-civilizations/ancient-egypt/the-horse-in-ancient-egypt/

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MillionEyesOfSumuru t1_jb7k94a wrote

Stirrups were also necessary for the use of lances on horseback, unless you wanted to be knocked off the back of your horse by the impact. Their later spread across Europe changed the shape of warfare, and really of the societies themselves.

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Peter_deT t1_jb92b78 wrote

Stirrups originated on the steppe quite late - 4th-5th century CE and spread both east and west. Before that, cavalry was still effective - as the Persians, Hannibal, Alexander and others showed. You could, with training, use spears and swords without falling off. The Sassanid Persians developed heavy cavalry, with high-cantled saddles, extensive armour and lances, before stirrups.

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PetsArentChildren t1_jb93s22 wrote

You’re right. I misunderstood my first source.

> After the creation of a special cavalry unit, the peoples of the ancient Near East and China made some innovations to the equine equipment in order to control their horses during fighting. The “martingale” collar was probably an innovation of the Near East, and stirrups were invented in ancient China.

On my first read, that sounded to me like these happened concurrently. Upon closer reading, the paper actually indicates China had cavalry 600 or more years before the stirrup. Thank you!

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SeaJay1187 t1_jb7ucta wrote

Humans were a lot smaller just 150 years ago. I went to a museum at mass general hospital called the ether dome. It is an actual OR from the 1800s (the first one that used anesthesia, ether)…. Many of the doors around were from around then. Very small…. Also the chairs were so small. Go to Fenway park and you’ll see the seats weren’t meant for modern people either (not a fat joke)

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Dilapidated_Monk t1_jb6ho7d wrote

Chariots absolutely came before horseback riding. It took thousands of years of horse breeding before humans were able to breed horses large enough to ride. This is verifiable fact backed by genetic testing of horses and many many papers written by distinguished scientists.

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forwardseat t1_jb7u34p wrote

The most similar domesticated horses to the original wild horses are probably the small horses the Mongolians are famous for. They’re very sturdy but very small. Horses don’t need to be very large to be effective riding animals, so I’m not sure the delay there was just about size of the animal.

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KeenK0ng t1_jb8qyaw wrote

Kids would ride their parent's animals. I wouldn't doubt they were riding horses before Chariots.

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Worsaae t1_jbdrr8h wrote

> while riding requires a relationship and thats it?

It also requires an animal that has been specifically bioengineered through many-many-many generations in order to achieve the size and physique in order to actually carry a person.

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