blastuponsometerries t1_is7984l wrote
Reply to comment by CloudiusWhite in Ethics of Nuclear Energy in Times of Climate Change: Escaping the Collective Action Problem by CartesianClosedCat
The problem with nuclear now is less technological, but startup costs and time.
You can spend 10 Billion for a decade and still need more time and money before its running. But then its good. We can just deploy solar/wind/batteries much faster and in smaller pieces, to save carbon immediately.
That said, we need a ton of power and we need to change with the speed and intensity of a Marshall plan. So it makes perfect sense to get 10-20% of world power from nuclear. That means we have to build a lot of it, right now.
But as governments drag their feet and pretend some new magic will save us in the future (not the working tech we already got right now), its doesn't make sense to invest limited budgets into it.
nuke621 t1_is7ffv7 wrote
I’d argue the biggest obstacle is will. We certainly ended up with a nuclear weapons arsenal that is much bigger then the power generation industy with all the waste products to boot. Sometime in the 1970s, the US lost the will to bet big. The moon landing and interstate highway system come to mind. We put our minds to it and did it. Problems came up and were addressed. You can’t start a huge project with all the reasons you can’t do it first.
LithiumTomato t1_is8efm8 wrote
The book Zero to One by Peter Theil talks about this. Really interesting read.
He makes the argument that the United States used to be a definite optimist country- the US looks positively on the future because it’s people plan, build, and achieve, despite risk of failure.
But now, he continues, the US is an indefinite optimist country. It has kept its optimism. But there’s no concrete planning or investment by many members of the US. In order to get something accomplished in the US, you must fight industry red tape, government intervention, and public criticism. So what do people do? Nothing. They spend. They eat, drink, and party.
When the expected public reaction to ideas is to try and destroy them before they even get off the ground, you create an environment that discourages creativity and persistence, which consequently leads to a less productive society.
blastuponsometerries t1_is7k3lv wrote
>I’d argue the biggest obstacle is will.
And who's will specifically? Why do we allow those who benefit massively from the status quo to stymie any change or progress?
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>We certainly ended up with a nuclear weapons arsenal that is much bigger then the power generation industy with all the waste products to boot. ... The moon landing and interstate highway system come to mind.
All of those were in the interests of the powerful. Luckily most coincided with the interests of the people as well. Nuclear weapons both protected the country as well as allowed it to have massive leverage over others. The moon landing was invested in out of fear of loss to communism, not some noble good. But the science that came along was a nice bonus.
Coincidentally the interstate highway system just so happened to result in the final dismantling of the US passenger train network. So cars went from a luxury to mandatory for participation in the US economy. Great for oil interests.
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>Sometime in the 1970s, the US lost the will to bet big.
After the whole generation was locked into car culture and the banks got stuffed with middle eastern oil money (foreign money in US banks did not have to fall under US financial regulations).
Suddenly the extremely wealthy interests had sidestepped the US controls that had helped the US dominate in world growth since the great depression. Then using this power to outsource jobs from the US to undermine the accumulated power of the American middle class and employees.
A decade later, enough power and wealth had been concentrated to go after the tax base of the country and dramatically centralize economic power. The power of the American voter shrunk proportionally. Its no mystery why popular reforms and investments are seemingly impossible, yet unpopular changes sail through nearly unopposed.
Its not some magic that caused the US to lose its ability for large investments in the 1970s. It was an intentional strategy to concentrating power in a way that no longer required projects to benefit multiple economic classes. Instead only serving the interests of the same small group of wealthy billionaires.
iiioiia t1_is81p8s wrote
> Why do we allow those who benefit massively from the status quo to stymie any change or progress?
Democracy. The current governance of the country is literally The Will of The People.
And in case you're the type to criticize it, first realize: it is literally our most sacred institution (as seen on TV - over, and over, and over).
gandzas t1_is86ji7 wrote
I think you missed the rest of his post.
iiioiia t1_is8g92y wrote
Oh I read it, and agree with it.
What is happening in the US is very much not the will of the people, it is extremely sophisticated theatre.
blastuponsometerries t1_isb65da wrote
Just a few basic things we have to do. Deeper changes come from questioning how on earth people still think the senate is a reasonable institution after increasing the number of states by 5x. Many of which have minuscule populations. Of course the Senate is the only body that can approve Supreme Court appointments. How convenient
In general the US population gets most things right over time.
But our current system is designed to constrain the will of the people at many key points. Then the people can be blamed for failures even as the people are basically ignored.
Nearly all our problems can be fixed by more democracy and giving the people a greater influence.
- Removing money and bribes from political elections
- Ranked choice to remove the 2 party duopoly
- Anti-gerrymandering protections and 2 winner districts to reduce polarization
Just a few basic things we have to do. Deeper changes come from questioning how on earth people still think the senate is a reasonable institution after increasing the number of states by 5x. Many of which have minuscule populations. Of course the Senate is the only body that can approve Supreme Court appointments. How convenient 🙄
iiioiia t1_isbf4ao wrote
> Just a few basic things we have to do. Deeper changes come from questioning how on earth people still think the senate is a reasonable institution. after increasing the number of states by 5x.
FTFY.
And regarding "how on earth people still think":
See also: https://ml4a.github.io/ml4a/how_neural_networks_are_trained/
> Of course the Senate is the only body that can approve Supreme Court appointments. How convenient.
The entire structure of the systems seems rather convenient. And archaic. And...some other things.
Nothing strategically planted heuristics can't paper over though!
> In general the US population gets most things right over time.
I suspect knowing this would require access to a counterfactual reality machine. No such machine is required to believe it though!
> Nearly all our problems can be fixed by more democracy and giving the people a greater influence.
Perhaps, but maybe only for very specific definitions of "nearly", "can", "fixed", "democracy", "giving", and "influence". People tend to have strong aversions to complexity/accuracy though, so maybe best avoid such styles of thinking - leave that up to The Experts, and of course, Democracy (our most sacred institution)!
I'm sure it will all work out in the end.
anotherjustlurking t1_is8ovdn wrote
I’d argue that it’s not will, it’s money. Speaking as an absolute idiot in all things nuclear, and with zero expertise in energy subjects of any sort, I’ll bet the legacy fossil fuel industry was a part of the effort to vilify nuclear, went to great lengths to gin up fear after some near-catastrophes and led the call for hyper regulation and greater “safety procedures” to hamper construction. I have absolutely no proof, have no documentation and zero evidence to support my outlandish claims, but it wouldn’t be the first time one mega industry sullied the reputation of another that it perceived as a threat. Follow the money. Oil, coal and natural gas would lose billions of dollars if nuclear power took off and replaced just a fraction of the fossil fuel industry’s death grip on America. Will power? Come on, man. It’s not like people were sitting around a table and sighing in frustration because nuclear SEEMED hard…”Godh, this seems really really hard…,” it BECAME hard, it was MADE difficult, it was over regulated and it’s dangers were hyped to ensure that it was hysterically feared. But that wasn’t by accident - that was by design. When there’s THAT much money to lose, things don’t happen by accident. No facts, actual documentation nor other legitimate technical or industry references were used in the development of this pessimistic, anti-capitalist screed. Any similarity to any well-articulated thesis, hypothesis or argument, living or dead is purely coincidental.*
CloudiusWhite t1_is7ak51 wrote
Solar, wind, geothermal, and hydro-electric are not really feasible means of space travel (panels are not efficient enough yet and we have never even built a solar wind styled craft. Im not sure we even could without fantasy technology for the sail), nuclear technology is a possibility though. We cannot just think of today and tommorrow, we have to look at things from a scale of 10 and 50 and 100 years from now.
avocadro t1_is802hu wrote
Why doesn't IKAROS count?
CloudiusWhite t1_is830mp wrote
IKAROS was a great step in testing the tech that we currently have, but that was a probe, an actual ship will require much more going on than we are currently ready for. Also IKAROS was designed with solar cells in the sail to power it, because it was essentially facing the sun and so that worked. If youre in a manned ship, youre not always heading towards the sun, so you would still need an alternative power source, if the solar can generate enough to power a manned vessel like it did the probe.
I think a solar sail would be a good secondary deployable mode of transport and possibly power from solar as well, maybe just to save power if theres no rush or something.
blastuponsometerries t1_is7i52h wrote
>Solar, wind, geothermal, and hydro-electric are not really feasible means of space travel
So what % of greenhouse gases are from space travel? Is that what you think we are trying to solve here? Just make everything solar for fun?
If you want to make chemical rockets "green" the propellant can be made from bio-fuels that don't add total CO2 to the atmosphere. But given that it is in the 1-2% range for the entire world, its pretty low on the priority list.
If you want to look at a 100 year timescale, green tech for the grid is inevitable. Its just so much cheaper to produce than fossil fuels. The next generation will look back in shock that we allowed our world politics to be dictated by such a messy and inefficient supply chain, all while obvious alternatives were available.
CloudiusWhite t1_is7lcv1 wrote
We have the power to work on both at once, denying one in the hope that magical fusion tech will just happen with the tiny amount of research being done today is just pointless and only holds up back in the greater scale.
Green is fine, but nuclear isnt the evil people make it out to be and we should be working on both of them.
ConfusedObserver0 t1_is8ukt2 wrote
Completely agree.
It’s expensive and takes a long time before that cost pays for its self. The pollution and cost to / lost life is lower than even green energy’s.
We can see the national security risk that petroleum is. We have cower to the petrol states ability to be nefarious and pull us by the balls. All of our worst foes come in the form of these states accept China (which is another thing altogether).
The faster we stop suckling from the black gold tit, the faster we extend the force of the liberal homogeny by muttering the worst actors power economically. The only down side is that areas like the Middle East will become even worse humanitarian crisis stricken when their cash cow sinks. The managing of that decline will be trying. None of these place are looking at the long term post fossil fuel world. And Russia will fade unless they get more resource rich when the permafrost opens up the attic.
notschneider t1_is8ouep wrote
If you haven’t, check out Small Module Reactors - by being much smaller they reduce a lot of the upfront costs
hO97366e6 t1_is8uvhz wrote
Yes, people always look to nuclear as some magic fix but ignore the fact that scaling up nuclear would take decades with huge up front costs and even then the power generated is not cost competitive with renewables today, let alone in decades when they start generating power.
We probably need some more nuclear capacity, and we'll probably need government incentives to make it financially viable for power companies to do it, but really 80-90% of our generation can be done pretty easily with renewables (including point of use generation) and an improved grid.
Dreadfulmanturtle t1_is90utk wrote
> we need to change with the speed and intensity of a Marshall plan
I'll up that and say we need it with speed and intensity of program Apollo
Jentleman2g t1_isadr07 wrote
There is a micro/modular reactor that just got approved by the US DoE for prototype testing. It's design is probably the best bet we have for striking a balance between nuclear power generation and costs. I would recommend looking up info on the project.
blastuponsometerries t1_isb6g87 wrote
Hopefully it works. We don't need 1 solution, we need 50 and to pursue them all aggressively.
Its ok if some ideas don't pan out, the cost of not getting at least some to succeed is basically everything.
marcusaurelius_phd t1_is9oxfo wrote
> e can just deploy solar/wind/batteries much faster and in smaller pieces, to save carbon immediately.
No we can't. There's absolutely no way we can build enough batteries. No way.
blastuponsometerries t1_isb3icc wrote
Actually batteries have come a very long way in just the past decade!
The really bad materials have been basically entirely phased out (cobalt/cadmium).
The main materials have all mature supply chains and batteries will use relatively little of them (compared to other uses, like construction). The main materials are iron/aluminum/manganese/carbon/silicon. All super easy.
Lithium was basically economically useless until recently. So its supply chain is very immature. But the material itself is extremely abundant and shortages are only in the near term.
Nickle is the final material that will be expensive and batteries will stress this supply chain. But they are only needed for the most dense applications (like high performance auto). But grid batteries and most commuter cars won't bother.
The economics of current gird batteries (compared to gas peaker plants) is amazing. The grid battery in southern Australia returned its investment costs in 6 months. That is an insane return for infrastructure.
The only reason its not the dominate form of grid management is because the whole supply chain and factories are taking some years to build. But that is just temporary. Its coming like a train.
marcusaurelius_phd t1_isb7c6z wrote
> Actually batteries have come a very long way in just the past decade
Still a couple orders of magnitude off.
blastuponsometerries t1_isbn6m9 wrote
~10 GWH of batteries were produced in 2010
~600 GWH of batteries will be produced this year. That is an order of magnitude in a little over a decade (with primarily venture back companies investing and less governments).
It will take ~10 TWH (transport) and ~20 TWH (grid), per year to transition to full renewable. So yes, 2 orders of magnitude off is about right.
Definitely within reach and cleaner non-renewables (like nuclear) can help bridge the gap sooner. But its coming. And that's just with the current generation of tech, if we think a decade or more into the future, additional material advancements can accelerate this further.
The best part is that batteries at the end of life are high grade ore. So recycling valuable materials will close the loop. After the transition, very little additional mining will be needed to maintain the world's battery supply. Unlike oil, which for generations has to be constantly replenished as the material nearly fully turns over every few months. So much waste.
marcusaurelius_phd t1_isbo7jx wrote
Now look at the amount of lithium and other materials required to produce those batteries. Compare and contrast with the material cost of nuclear plants -- hint: they're the lowest of any power generation amortized over lifetime. Incidentally, they require less CO₂-emitting concrete than windmills per Wh.
blastuponsometerries t1_isbsynv wrote
I am not arguing against Nuclear, its part of the solution. But only part.
Solar and wind can be built out much much faster. You can see that from the economics alone.
Nuclear requires government funding to make it feasible. Wind/solar are being built out currently in a major way with private investments. Sure gov incentives help, but are no longer mandatory. Private capital going towards wind/solar is a massive advantage in the fight on climate change because it bypasses political processes that oil money has stymied.
I would like more nuclear. But its simply not economic to do so. If we could get governments to move past inaction and invest in the future grid, sure it would come along. But in the meantime, significant nuclear will be nothing more than a nice idea.
marcusaurelius_phd t1_isbtfd7 wrote
> Solar and wind can be built out much much faster.
The necessary storage cannot, even accepting the overly optimistic prediction you posted earlier.
blastuponsometerries t1_isbv512 wrote
Batteries are economic for gird use right now. Its just production constrained. Just so happens capitalism is really good at solving that particular issue.
Nuclear is totally different. Massively expensive, high risk, and long time horizons. Something capitalism is bad at solving. Thus gov intervention is required to change the dynamic. This is borne out in the empirical reality of how private companies are currently investing.
Still grid storage can dramatically lag wind/solar for a few reasons:
- Wind/solar naturally complement each other (wind tends to produce more at night, when solar is offline)
- Existing hydro is easily retrofitted to be more on demand and act as grid storage (already currently happening)
- EVs are not picky about charging times and are easily setup to take advantage of low prices and reduce at times of high prices, helping to decouple generation and demand
- If we dramatically overproduce during the day, there are plenty of productive uses for basically free power, desalination is a great place to start
marcusaurelius_phd t1_isbzxzn wrote
> Batteries are economic for gird use right now. Its just production constrained. Just so happens capitalism is really good at solving that particular issue
You're just waving away a very obvious problem, and I don't understand how you can. Lithium production is constrained. Batteries cost money, that means energy, production capacity, and lithium as well as other stuff. On top of that, they don't improve à la Moore's law as you appear to believe. We gain a few % every year, not an order of magnitude every 5.
Currently, grid-level storage cover at best minutes, sometimes hours in very small areas. To cover windless, sunless periods, we need days, and indeed more like 2 weeks.
You say nuclear plants take too long to build, but there is no way we can produce enough batteries in 20 years, which is plenty of time to build reactors.
blastuponsometerries t1_isc2jdv wrote
>You're just waving away a very obvious problem, and I don't understand how you can. Lithium production is constrained.
So separate out discussing batteries and lithium.
Batteries are production constrained and require fairly significant capx into new factories to get. That has been happening in a major way for the past few years and is only accelerating. It will take many years of scaling to truly satisfy world demand, but that means a lot of money and investment (again already happening).
Lithium itself has a different dynamic.
Lithium is quite abundant and has been considered a waste product from other types of mining for quite a long time. That has now changed and will be solved in reasonably short order. No new tech is required and tons of reserves are already proven. Within 5 years the price should be reasonably stabilized.
Also, most of the battery mass are what I mentioned. Iron/Aluminum/Carbon/Silicon. People fixate on lithium because it is in the name of the battery, but its a relatively small part by mass. Its just not a serious problem outside of the next few years.
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>Currently, grid-level storage cover at best minutes, sometimes hours in very small areas. To cover windless, sunless periods, we need days, and indeed more like 2 weeks.
The more solar you build, the more predictable it becomes. The solar panel on your house might change based on relative cloud cover, but solar over a whole region becomes quite predictable.
To make power reliable, you have to over build it. The current fossil fuel is overbuilt. So you would need more solar than for you average day. Also major appliances (like EVs) will become more responsive to changing grid prices. Demand will become more elastic.
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>You say nuclear plants take too long to build, but there is no way we can produce enough batteries in 20 years, which is plenty of time to build reactors.
Plenty of time. Now someone actually has to put up the money.
Its already happening in renewables, hopefully government or capital desires to actually invest in nuclear. In the meantime, nuclear is standing still and will waste out another decade.
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