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genuinely_insincere t1_jcl8sc1 wrote

Reply to comment by WaveCore in Schopenhauer and Hegel’s feud was metaphysical: a pessimist who recognised the unchangeable essence of the world and an optimist who saw human history as perpetual growth could never get along. by IAI_Admin

I think you might be in denial a little bit. Optimism is about overcoming those negative feelings. Pessimism is about falling to those negative feelings. And perpetuating them. An optimist has those negative feelings and addresses them in a healthy way. A pessimist refuses to let go of them.

But I don't mean to be disrespectful or to disregard what you said. Because I think it's an interesting perspective

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WaveCore t1_jclbgfd wrote

I'd always considered the definition of optimism and pessimism to see things either more positively or more negatively. I don't think how you feel about things is part of the definition. I'd also argue that the more negative take is almost always closer to reality than the positive take.

I find that having a lower expectation approach to life has been better for my happiness. Less disappointed when things don't go ideally, more pleased when they actually do. Meanwhile most people I know who are more optimistic and expect more, ironically end up being more disappointed.

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Tuorom t1_jclkraz wrote

> I'd also argue that the more negative take is almost always closer to reality than the positive take.

People tend to overly lean on negativity. It's why you can be sure a negative opinion will reach further and persist despite any evidence to the contrary. People don't want to be hurt.

Being optimistic is not about expectations either, it's about seeing the potential in people or things. It's not "he is the best person and will never let me down" but "he has good qualities and I would like to see him cultivate them". It's akin to Existentialism and there being no inherent meaning but infinite space for you to fill with meaning.

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WaveCore t1_jclqcw5 wrote

>People tend to overly lean on negativity. It's why you can be sure a negative opinion will reach further and persist despite any evidence to the contrary. People don't want to be hurt.

My take is that because people generally prefer to accept more positive thoughts, the neutral reality seems negative in comparison. It doesn't have to be that way though, it's always possible to change how you feel about things.

>Being optimistic is not about expectations either, it's about seeing the potential in people or things.

The very definition of expect is to believe something more likely to happen. Which in the case of optimism, is to believe that a favorable outcome is more likely to happen.

>"he has good qualities and I would like to see him cultivate them"

This is not an optimistic statement, it's neutral. It doesn't suggest any outcome, it's just commentary.

An optimistic statement would be "I believe he'll cultivate his qualities and grow". If you don't truly believe in or expect the outcome, by definition you're not actually being optimistic about it.

Just to elaborate on what I mean:

  • Optimistic: things will get better

  • Neutral: things could get better

  • Pessimistic: things won't get better

I'm a firm believer of neutral in most cases when things are uncertain. I do like to be cautiously optimistic sometimes though.

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Tuorom t1_jcpjti6 wrote

I will spew my train of thought here, maybe redefine some terms hehe. Not that I disagree with what you said.

I never looked at optimism or pessimism as needing specificity in an outcome. It is more as an attitude toward the future and of possibilities, and not knowing. That's what I think of expectation, in that it expresses a specific outcome that I don't think necessarily applies to an attitude.

But then I don't view this as a strict dichotomy but a spectrum of feeling. There's a scale of perceived freedom. In the existential sense of starting with nothing, the optimist sees ways to engage with possibility while the pessimist still sees nothing, within the context of each choice. The pessimist negates what is inherent to them while the optimist perceives various levels of possibility that is subjective to them.

So I see pessimism as seeing no meaningful choice and no freedom, the bottom where we all start, and optimism is any level above that where we actively engage, positivity, as it relates to existentialism. People with more optimism can feel like more is possible, that more choices can be made. Like that Bernard Shaw quote "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?”

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genuinely_insincere t1_jd1ogsy wrote

I recently saw a TED talk about that! And it really changed how I deal with negative people. Or difficult people. Like Trump types who refused to see logic. Because, apparently humans tend to have a hard time letting go of negative facts. So, you might think that curly hair looks good on somebody. So you like Curly hair. But then you meet somebody who has curly hair who treats you like shit. Now you don't like people with curly hair. And then it takes a lot more for you to let go of that negative idea. Whereas it just took one negative instance to get rid of the positive idea.

So I'll get really frustrated when I talk to negative people because they refuse to let go even when I'm showing them facts, and even when I open up to them emotionally and heal their emotional wounds with them. They'll still refuse to let go of the negative point.

So it's become really frustrating for me. But I guess if it's true that people have a hard time letting go of negativity, it kind of makes it easier for me to just let go of them. And let them work through things in their own time.

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genuinely_insincere t1_jd1o4m6 wrote

It's just so unsettling to see someone say that negativity is more real than positivity.

So, let's say Your mother hates you and despises you. What do you think that would do to you? You would probably have a very tough time with life. You would encounter a lot of problems simply from that one thing.

But then let's say Your mother loves you and adores you. Now you're going to be healthier and stronger. You're going to have an easier time in life. You're going to feel better.

Negativity is not more real than positivity.

I know that wasn't your main point, but I kind of picked up on that even before you stated that. Like I could tell that you were thinking along those lines.

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WaveCore t1_jd3fu5s wrote

So that’s my bad actually for framing my stance inaccurately, but what I’m really trying to say is not that I prefer negativity over positivity, it’s that I prefer honesty over positivity. But because being honest is often viewed as negative, the two concepts are often conflated. And the reason why is simple, there is usually much more reason to hide negativity than there is to hide positivity.

So back to your example, I would much rather my mother just authentically treat me the way she feels like it. Especially if I can tell if she’s showing false positivity. I don’t need things sugar coated, I’m very comfortable with the truth and reality.

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