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yelbesed2 t1_j8dk36v wrote

But our thinking is a random collection of patterns. No one is exceptional. Even if we are eavesdropped by a tyrant central power...my thoughts remain free...I did live in a Russian colony. And I knew even my flat could have been listened in...[ later i learned my psychotherapist s office was microphoned due to one friend being very clever in secret opposition workings].. so Dennett - always living in the West - does not have firsthand experience when hi claims we can be stopped to feel free.

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CaseyTS t1_j8fgav9 wrote

Gotta say, our thoughts are complex but absolutely not random, nowhere near totally. We wouldn't have social structure or science if we didn't actually know and do things with intention. Not to say that the world isn't deterministic; it is, for the most part, as far as science knows (we haven't proven that something can act without causality, which the philosophy idea of free will requires to some degree)

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Duebydate t1_j8fusig wrote

No they in fact do not remain free. If you are being eavesdropped, it’s logical to assume listening in on the “out” pathway assumes there is, indeed an “in” pathway creating at least some “thoughts,” that may, in fact, be contrived introductions

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Duebydate t1_j8gq0sg wrote

As I’ve already attempted to reply, if you are being eavesdropped, your thoughts most certainly are probs not free. A line out for listening necessarily means there is a line in for introduction, introducing and literally spelling and telling you which then amounts to jot your brain product of thoughts at all

At that point, whether recognized or not by the human possessing that particular brain, there is no freedom, no possible agencies and choice has forever been removed.

I struggle with why this is a difficult notion. I’ve far more difficulty accepting there is agency and free will as long as the person supposedly possessing it is unaware of their manipulation

To me free will, agency and autonomy must necessarily encapsulate more than just the progenitors BELIEF it is real. Post modernism suggests only a souls interpretation creates a reality

I am firmly in the belief structure that your experience of reality and the outer facts of reality you may not be aware of constitute a more whole picture of true reality.

If one is being influenced, coerced and or controlled by information, it completely influences the truth of the reality, and causality. Just because one may be unaware of causality does not mean it’s not creating false causation. It may create a situation that creates a certain view of reality, but fails in making it true, if how the reality is caused and perceived isn’t known, it’s a deceptive process

Reality exists with facts and truth beyond the simple experience of it if the introduced control is causal, then it may be a reality but the causality is inherently deceptive and absolutely controlled

I think it’s worthwhile for anyone participating here and therefore acknowledging it would even be possible for an individuals’ thoughts to be monitored or even be broadcasted to others around them, to wholly empatheticaly imagine what that would be like for the individual

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figuresys t1_j8hpag9 wrote

People don't even behave the same way on-camera as their off-camera selves. Let alone knowing your thoughts are being monitored.

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