I'm still baffled this is even a project they're moving forward.

The most salient information provided by the article is this:

>Many transit advocates in the city say the $2.9 billion project wastes money better spent on more urgent needs.

This is the first time that I've seen it reported at more than $ 2 billion. I'm not sure where they found that number, but I believe it and.. yikes. If they build this stupid thing, it will probably end up costing $ 4 billion.

Meanwhile:

>The KOP rail extension would carry about 10,000 daily riders, according to SEPTA’s projections.

That's not a lot of people for $ 3 billion.

I still struggle to understand why SEPTA is fighting so hard to make this happen. Somebody must really want it or maybe everybody is just too embarrassed to admit that they've made a mistake and wasted a lot of time.

I'm very curious to see what the Federal Transit Administration rates this as and whether they agree to fund it through the Capital Investment Grant program. It's hard to imagine them giving it a 'Highly Recommended' and $ 1.45 billion in good faith and conscience, but if the fix it is in, the fix is in.

>I still struggle to understand why SEPTA is fighting so hard to make this happen. Somebody must really want it or maybe everybody is just too embarrassed to admit that they've made a mistake and wasted a lot of time

My guess is that the developers who spent untold millions building developments and apartments buildings there which are essentially isolated, as well as the mall are pushing for this.

10000 daily riders, an increase of -4500 over current bus routes

They're not though.

I read somewhere else that Septa's board is mostly people from the suburbs so it's on their wish list

One big reason this is happening is because of the huge increase in residential building (condos/apartments and houses) in the western burbs where they’re planning on having stations. There’s no real alternative to get from these burbs to the city except via 422 and 76, both of which weren’t made to handle the kind of traffic this population growth requires. To remedy that they’d have to expand those highways or work with the existing tracks laid down decades ago and make it a western regional line. I can’t imagine an expansion of those highways would’ve been a cheaper alternative and folks who live in the towns (or nearby) where they plan on having stations have been lobbying for regional rail for years.

Doesn't the mall not even want it?

I have no idea. I was just putting out a guess.

Each County (and the City, which is also it's own county) gets 2 reps. So that's 8:2 already. Plus the gov, senate min/maj and house min/maj each get a rep. Being generous, that's still 10:5 (giving the most credit to the gov and 1 rep from each body) in favor of the counties.

https://www5.septa.org/about/boards/septa-board/

3 Billion for 10k riders is roughly $300k per rider lmao. I know that goes down over the years but...That's insane.

Subway to Manayunk instead please

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Wouldn't this help with 76 traffic. If this KOP extension happens, it seems like it would be a good central hub for bus/ shuttle services to the many employers along the 76 cooridoor (like up in Malvern and further along... lots of big companies with lots of people who live in the city and commute daily, I could see a lot of them being interested in this line)

Yeah, the cost ballooned due to concessions made to those developers who don't really want this.

>I can’t imagine an expansion of those highways would’ve been a cheaper alternative and folks who live in the towns (or nearby) where they plan on having stations have been lobbying for regional rail for years.

I think this is a far more reasonable assessment than most. But the alternative highways would be federal dollars. I seem to recall some discussion of one of the recent omnibus bills including these funds and hopefully they're coming from there.

Subway to Roxborough like the city originally intended. For Manayunk they should do the absolutely possible thing of turning the R6 into a metro line, like what's shown for the Reimagining regional rail scenario 2.

15 minute all day trains with trains that have at least 3 entrances, El style seating, and entrances that are platform level. Boom Manayunk elevated subway made.

Very unfortunate the Schuylkill Valley Metro plan failed in the early 2000s. Could’ve avoided this boondoggle while easing the possibility of Amtrak expanding their services to Reading by renovating the tracks ahead of time…

I've got a sense that the feds may take a look at it again and deny the funds, plus the state has to kick in too. Dunno if I see that happening. I'd hope that a shift to a BLVD subway would be a nice shiny carrot for the feds to fund, as it would carry 100k riders a day by the estimates from 20 years ago. Probably many more now

This is going to be a billion dollar boondoggle. Rail should link KOP but they should have done it by making the regional rail connect along 422 vs using the high speed line.

It’s costing a fortune due to NIMBYism and having to weave along I-276 when they could have negotiated right of way access with the existing RR line.

God that would be amazing. Relying on 2 buses and biking is difficult as is. It would go a long way making Manayunk/Rox feel more apart of the city.

I don't even bother with the R6, it's so infrequent and costs double other methods. Plus lugging up and down a hill

Word is that scenario 2 is by far the most popular plan based of polls septa has done.

When the R6 runs, you can get from Manayunk station to Market east in less then 20 minutes if there's no hold ups, and 25 with moderate hold ups.

That's on par with trolleys from deeper in west Philly getting to 13th st. Except the added benefit of 0 car traffic.

Fucking ridiculous

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So fucking stupid. People from the burbs aren't going to transfer in Upper Darby and take the asphyxiation express El to go out to dinner or shopping in Center City. Who is the target market for this line?

They’re mostly indifferent.

If it was ten years ago you figure the mall needed a way to ship people in. But malls are dead bro. Right?

fuck KOP, why can’t they use this money to build the boulevard subway line??????

> I still struggle to understand why SEPTA is fighting so hard to make this happen

Me too.

As you watch the price tag climb and climb and climb, you'll understand why SEPTA is fighting for it. People are gonna get PAID

Am I right that it ends at the casino? They could at least bring it all the way to Valley Forge park. Idk maybe you’d get more weekend ridership from people in the city that way. N Gulph road has no sidewalk or shoulder between the casino and the park even though its a short walk.

Idk. The devil’s advocate in me thinks: Anything that could theoretically reduce congestion long term along the schuylkill is valuable. And KOP is the last exit before it becomes the turnpike. And has seen some development recently. This could spur more development in that area.

But there are probably a a dozen transit improvements you could make to septa for this price tag that would help more people.

Most malls yeah, but not KOP, it's packed every weekend.

While I agree we need more rail infrastructure, worth noting the population in Philly is still several hundred thousand less than it was in the 70's.

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They are. This is a Biden administration win. (whether you agree with this specific project the win is funding non-private vehicle transit)

Philly could probably use another way into the city agreed. that said new roads only really alleviate congestion for a little until people start driving more and replenish the traffic. Public transit is the only way to really keep traffic down.

Right, but there are more people in the metro area. And those people in the metro area are quite frankly a lot more likely to take the train into the city than they are to move into the city.

$125 Million for the design only?? Holy shit. I'm in a related industry and that seems bloated AF.

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Yep, and it will make the NSHL accessible for a lot more people. Plus Delco might finally do something about 69th st

I live in those western burbs, and agree with everything you've said here.

But I think all of those problems are solved FAR more effectively by putting the budget for the KOP rail extension into accelerating reimagined regional rail, as well as making the investments necessary for successfully launching and then increasing frequency on the planned Amtrak line to Reading.

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>I still struggle to understand why SEPTA is fighting so hard to make this happen

Look where it ends. Right at the casino. That's who's pushing for it.

Fuck this, 3B and it stops at KOP???

3B should be enough to get it to Pottstown. Fucking embezzling fucks.

I was a proponent of this in a pre-COVID world where office parks didn’t look like they’d ever be phased out, as much as most wanted.

Now, I can see a lot of companies scaling down if they have outs in their lease, rendering huge suburban office parks useless. Couple that with more workers WFH and not having to commute to the city, and the strong chance that even KOP Mall will not be a thing someday, and there are much better uses for $4B in capital project funds.

It actually ends about a half mile from the casino door. They’re, no shit, planning to shuttle people there on golf carts.

Problem is the NHSL is not fast, and neither route is all that faster than a bus and certainly not faster than driving.

KOP to Center City with or without the extension is still going to take 60-90 minutes.

An extension of the Manayunk RR line would be a better use of those $$ than this.

I had an idea a couple of days ago. I live in the western burbs, so these aren’t the roads I travel everyday, so I curious your thought. First, I preface that I-76 south of 476 is worst stretch of highway in the state. It’s stuck between a river and a rock wall with no where to expand. Here’s my thought. Make 76 south of 476 one way. Use all of the lanes to go into the city only. Okay, so how to get them back? Make the Blue Route one way, as well, just the opposite direction. Expand the section of 95 between the two to compensate for the increased travel. On ramps and exit ramps would all need to be rethought, but how does this broad stroke of an idea sound?

> half mile from the casino

Yeah, that's literally across the street. Any closer it would be IN the casino parking lot.

Hopefully they can create some kind of KOP transit hub and - if they can find or create space - continue the train into other directions. Like to the Northeast, or to cough Reading, or to Exton.

You shouldn't need to always go to 30th Street to go anywhere

What would that have entailed?

I bet the 2k people that will use this monthly are so happy

It’s also that all areas septa services have equal say in projects, with the 6 or so outside Philly areas all coming together to vote down Philly projects in favor of projects outside the city. This is even when Philly makes up over 90% of ridership.

afaik no one including the mall was willing to give up parking for this, makes it seem like they couldn't care less

lmao they can't even staff rush hour service anymore and they're giving this pile of shit they don't think anyone will ride $125 million more for "design" after a decade of "designs".

Do people who live out there even come into the city?

SEPTA seves South Eastern Pennsylvania, not just Philly, and Bucks county alone has over 200k more people than it did in the 1970s, pretty sure MontCo population has gone up even more than Bucks.

>This is even when Philly makes up over 90% of ridership.

Got a source for this?

This won't help with 76 traffic. Any traffic reduction gains by the 10k ridership will be offset by induced demand. You see it every time a new highway lane is built. You can see it on Long Island, where the country's most popular regional rail exists, but highway commute times into the city still average over an hour.

i hope philly continues to fund more rail systems in the future. rail is very underutilized in the US for general travel. Itll help the envio and help ease congestion which also helps the envio. give me more trains.

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yeah for sure. i've lived in KOP for a long time, these suburbs are still growing so quick from the bleed in from cities.

there's negotiation to build rail stops in Royersford, reading and few others as well that would go into the city.

I can't pretend to speak on the finances etc of this rail project, but from a regular dudes opinion im all for it if it makes getting to the city and places easier than driving

i think something like that is in the works again

https://patch.com/pennsylvania/phoenixville/schuylkill-river-passenger-rail-authority-gets-quick-start

10,000 daily riders * 365 days = 3,650,000 riders per year * $5 per fare = $18,250,000 fare per year

$3,000,000,000 cost to finish / $18,250,000 fare per year = 164 years and 4 months to break even on fares, not counting maintenance costs

i'm onboard (hah) for viewing public rail investments as a cost of internal improvement rather than as return on investment equity...but this is such a useless addition to the existing rail infrastructure and the cost of it has to be looked at like this. it's a frivolous investment, nothing else to be said

Yeah, pre-COVID I totally got the rationale of connecting the third largest employment center in SEPA with the first and second largest employment centers. My office is in University City and I regularly commuted on the NHSL for over a decade. I like the high speed line; it's timely, efficient, and not expensive like regional. I don't even care about transferring at 69th Street. But I go into the office maybe once a month now. The NHSL station lot near my house definitely has more daily commuters parking again but it doesn't look like it's back to pre-COVID levels. I dunno, I guess what's going to happen is going to happen. I'm neither for nor against the expansion. I'm a NHSL fan but meh.

Your daily reminder that a Roosevelt blvd subway was estimated at around $3B 10 years ago (I think) and was estimated to carry 90-100k daily.

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If I had an organ that was dedicated to cost benefit analyses... which I suppose would be my brain, so this sentence is off to a great start... it would explode at this point.

The Inquirer article about this recent development, a recent interview General Manager and CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICE OMFG SLAY QUEEN Richards and online discussion have all mentioned the Roosevelt Boulevard Subway. Whether it's entirely reasonable or not, a narrative might be emerging that casts it and KoPRail as in opposition. I think that this could be a good thing, because at the very least, SEPTA deserves to be smacked upside the head for its poor decision making about major capital projects. It's riders deserve the Roosevelt Boulevard Subway, but that will be harder, if more worthwhile, to deliver.

I will at least take satisfaction in fantasizing about how Jay Arzu, Representative Solomon and the remarkably effective movement that they have started for the Roosevelt Boulevard Line are giving the senior managers and members of the board of SEPTA ulcers. The best revenge, of course, will be that it actually gets built. (Some relatively encouraging news: Rebecca Rhynhart hasreportedly come out in favor of the Roosevelt Boulevard Subway)

Live in KOP and will never use this. Fucking nobody wants to ride to 69th street to get to center city. This is a fucking waste.

I’ve been to both of their sessions and I’m hoping to help be a voice for change within the community. Jay and Jared Solomon are doing good work.

It’s 3 billion to extend the line? Why is the article 125mil ? Thanks

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Such a stupid way to run a transit agency.

Sidewalks are easy to add. At that end is also the new Top golf which is currently under construction as well as multiple class-A office buildings and life science labs. Many of those are owned by Brandywine Realty Trust, whose CEO was quoted in the article.

I think people need to realize that white collar professionals are not going to be riding the MFL through 69th street and up the NHSL. The real demo for this will allow lower income people, largely people of color from west Philly, upper Darby, and Norristown areas, to access higher paying, quality jobs in KOP they could not get to before.

Should do the same thing with the inner burbs on the R5, would suck to have to potentially transfer if coming from say Malvern or Downingtown but ridership would improve where MOST riders live.

Well for scenario 2 they're doing part of the R5 from Radnor to CC as 15 min.

Here's all the lines that would be covered by scenario 2.

https://iseptaphilly.com/blog/rrrphase2

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Everyone should know this goes to upper darby, it doesn't even go into the city. Who the fuck is going to ride this

> but how does this broad stroke of an idea sound?

Like you have no idea what north/south vs East/west are or the mileage involved for such a silly idea.

Easily will balloon to $4 billion dollars. I wonder where they’re going to get that money?

Isolated from what?

That’s just for drawings. No actual rail work.

No fucking way it takes 125 mil for drawings. What a scam gov contracts are lol

Wait until you see the cost overruns.

This is bullshit, SEPTA does not block Philadelphia projects.

SEPTA rebuilt the entire elevated section of the MFL line not that long ago, just signed a contract for a new trolley fleet, is making all subway stations ADA accessible, and is looking for a new fleet of subway cars.

This is a wild idea and it’s hard to articulate how bad and impractical it is but I think we should try it just to see what happens.

so many better things this could go to that would benefit way more people than a train connecting a bunch of parking lots.

do the boulevard subway. or at least use the alignment for KOP rail that went along 202

“public transit brings crime” is one of the most classic racist dog whistles out there. so if you didn’t mean it that way, you should probably stop saying it.

How many busses can you buy for $2.9B? LOL

Welcome to the world of government consultants. They do the work, because the state doesn't have the ability to.

There's an old joke, probably rooted in reality, about contractors having boats or expensive automobiles called, "Change Order."

You are correct that 76 is labeled East/West but I always think of it as N/S because I grew up off the North East Extension and Philly is just always considered “South”.

I’m terms of “silly”. Is it silly for literally hundreds of people sit idly on a stretch of blacktop while their engines idle needlessly, or is better to drive a little further half the time and likely get home quicker?

You hit the nail on the head

Which is a fucking disgrace. 80% of septas riders are in the city.

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As a subway newbie, can someone tell me whether this means I could hop onto the subway on broad street in south philly and take it directly to the KOP mall without worrying about transfers or w/e?

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You’d have to transfer at 69th St after transferring to the EL.

It cost half a billion to build a tunnel under the Allegheny River and add a few stations. Total extension was just over a mile.

And this was in 2008. It would probably somehow cost a billion today.

It’s such bs because, last I checked, the NHSL stops in Bryn Mawr. I must have missed all the gangs terrorizing Lancaster Ave.

Sadly no, it’s 2 transfers, and extra zone charges.

And none of the suburban politicians are either. This really feels like a thing only SEPTA wants

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Yeah. I rode the manayunk line for 3 years and it was fucking horrible.

KOP exists because of suburban sprawl. Philadelphia lost a great number of taxpayers to suburban sprawl. Why are we building this overpriced boondoggle instead of something necessary like the Roosevelt Blvd line or extending the BSL? Fuck, extending PATCO to the 40th St trolley portal would do more for our region.

Wait people still believe this will reduce traffic on 476 and 76? In what 10-12 years of this actually gets built? Septa would be better spending money on security making trains safe again, last time I took the NHSL a few weeks ago a dude was smoking crack on the train and the female conductor had passengers remove him

I don't think they were saying SEPTA blocks Philadelphia projects. I'm guessing they were talking about the 11 SEPTA board members. There are 2 board members from each county +1 additional member. Philly is denser and more of its residents utilize public transportation than any of the other 4 counties, yet they all have the same number of board members. So Philly projects can get voted down more easily in favor of suburban projects that don't affect as many riders

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I think it's only a few roundtrips per day, ending at 30th street. The Amtrak and PA State Rail plans seem to diverge a decent amount.

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Honestly always thought that this plan was the extension of that line. That fucking blows that it’s not.

Again that's just pure bullshit, as I pointed to already in terms of recent and coming major capital projects.

The Philadelphia board members have veto power, they have disproportionate power on the board compared to the other members, additionally most of SEPTA's capital spending had been on city projects.

Everyone in here trying to push this conspiracy theory that the SEPTA board has it out for Philly, and that the suburban members block funding projects in the city is an idiot who who clearly doesn't know shit about SEPTA, how it operates, how it's funded, what it's agency objectives are, and what it's done already.

Quite frankly so many of the takes in this thread are from people who just to moved to Philly 5 minutes ago. That or they're actually still children who don't know shit about how SEPTA works and what it done just in the last 20 years.

They certainly don't know the dynamics of the metropolitan region, or how major infrastructure projects get done in the real world.

The cars on federal highways all end up on local streets

And it would provide a direct link from NW/CC to KOP.

By design

It's absolutely crazy that the Commonwealth would ever go against their largest economy's interest, when they could instead provide them with services to enable the economy /s

It would be helpful if you shared some resources for everyone rather than calling them idiots and children and accusing them of conspiracy theories. You may know all the things, but many of the answers and details aren't readily available.

How does SEPTA work? How does it operate? How is it funded? What are it's objectives? What has it done in the last 20 years? How does the veto power and the ability to override the veto work? What are the dynamics of metropolitan area? How do major infrastructure projects get done in the real world?

I have a slightly above average understanding of how SEPTA works and yet I can't even answer all those questions. I'm not a child, idiot, or conspiracy theorist, and I have lived in and around Philly my entire life. I'd argue that very few people understand how infrastructure projects as large and unique as the KOP rail line get done in the real world, even plenty of people involved.

My biggest question is why a project projected to move 10k passengers per day would be prioritized over a project projected to move closer to 100k passengers. Similar cost estimates. Questioning that is not a conspiracy theory, it's a legitimate question about how cost benefit decisions are made

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If the Ivy Ridge Branch was never abandoned then it would be easy to convert part of the R6 into a Metro but it would better to just run service every 15mins which possible now. But converting without the Ivy Ridge Branch would cancel any restoration of service to Reading, and I doubt people coming from the outer suburbs/422 corridor would want to transfer to a Metro.

Well that's fucking bullshit, I thought they'd at least connect it to the main system. Why even bother?

Reading was in progress (sort of) last time I checked. They were setting up a committee to get started on making the proposals or whatever. Very early stages, but they’ve been trying to get that going for a couple years.

i76 being between a river and cliff certainly doesnt help make it any easier to expand too.

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I'm shocked that many people take buses out there. Hopefully this is another much faster option for them...

The rail that goes out there is actually pretty decent I used to take it as part of my commute, but it’s a pain in the ass the use. I guess it gets like 90% there so they figure why not extend it but it’s like priority 10005 for actual riders of SEPTA, and as many have said it would probably be better served as a bus rapid transit.

As much as I'd rather this money go toward infill lines within the city, interurban lines like this are seriously lacking in the US. Connecting a growing population hub to the city center with rail is a great move. Especially when it'll only cost $2/ride.

With the trolley modernization, SEPTA is looking to connect the 15 to 69th St. That'll expand access to KOP jobs for people living along that line as well.

Edit: it sucks we have to pick and choose which of these projects get funded. In a better world, all SEPTA's expansion and upgrade plans would be paid for.

Switching to metro style trains would be a game changer. I don't want to excuse these shitty developers who've destroyed manayunk & rox by overbuilding. But something needs to be done to address the 24/7 traffic cluster fuck there.

I may be wrong but I think most of that old track has been ripped up and was sold off to pay creditors.

Well if it's not faster than driving I will still drive to KOP.

At the end of the day for me it's about convenience if I gotta wait every hour for a train, and it takes 45-60 mins to get there I'm better off in my own car, even with traffic.

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Yeah but it's extremely likely a train to Reading will just be another spoke on the wheel. I am looking for a second wheel option. I'd like to get on in Exton and go directly to Bryn Athyn.

No offense to outer suburbs but fuck them. People who live in Philadelphia which starting from Ivy ridge down should have priority.

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Double decker (👁 ͜ʖ👁)

Nah let's just add more lanes to 95

JUST ONE MORE LANE, BRAH

Only know a couple friends who do it and it’s cause they don’t have a car.

I was at a SEPTA meeting a couple years ago and asked why can’t they connect the BSL to the R6, and possibly the two chestnut hill lines in north Philly through a new tunnel. They have the extra track north of walnut locust to handle increased transit down there.

A couple SEPTA workers were honest with me afterwards and said they have thought about that for decades but it would fought very strongly by locals to regional rail stations. There’s an increase in crime/loitering around subway stations in the city that you don’t get at regional rail stations. To convert such stations would involve so much pushback it won’t be an easy project. But on the other hand the amount of money and effort they’re putting into this it could’ve gotten it done if redirected.

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It won't be faster, the high speed part isn't reality lol

Well, unfortunately, federal spending doesn't.

give me the boulevard line, or give me death

Candidate for Mayor Rebecca Rhynhart would appear to agree with you.

Amtrak has plans on a reading train

And ruin the Green Lane Bridge morning Thunderdome?

AND THEYRE CUTTING EVERY BUS IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD??