Submitted by psychothumbs t3_10m4aoz in nyc
brownredgreen t1_j610it1 wrote
Reply to comment by OrangeSlimeSoda in Mayor Adams unveils proposal to convert Midtown offices into apartments by psychothumbs
What do YOU propose we do with empty office space in Midtown? Empty for the long haul as WFH shifts the landscape?
Its easy to be a critic. Its better to offer solutions.
OrangeSlimeSoda t1_j6118e5 wrote
There's no easy solutions; that's why there's a crisis. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't point out the problems with converting office to residential. If you close your ears to criticism, you'll just keep blundering into problem after problem.
Obviously this is a consequence of 20 years of administrative and municipal negligence. It's like climate change - anything we do now will take years to pay dividends. Here's a panel talk by experts in the field given at Fordham's law school late last year where they go into various issues contributing to the housing crisis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9703JH3AX8&ab_channel=Fordhampcsinfo They basically don't think that converting office to residential is a feasible solution because you can't get the private sector on board with it, and these projects require a concerted effort by both the private and public sectors.
If office building owners don't want their property used for residential, what will the City do? Seize the property? That will mire the City in years of costly litigation, and by the time it's settled, new housing buildings could be halfway done.
LikesBallsDeep t1_j61h2mu wrote
Noone's forcing anything.
If you own an office building now and are losing a shit ton of money because it's mostly empty, this would just allow you (and maybe offer some incentives/zoning and code waivers) to convert it into apartments/condos so that you can stop losing a shit ton of money.
If you as the office owner prefer to keep it as an empty office and continue losing a shit ton of money, that's your god given right. It's also stupid, but being stupid is also your right.
ehsurfskate t1_j64jxb4 wrote
There is ALOT you are missing and assuming with your assessment here.
First off is you are assuming there is no cash flow at all for these office spaces. There is and return to office continues to tick up. If it keeps going and if there is an event like a white collar recession employees will be more willing to go in and will have less bargaining power.
The second is you are assuming it would be more profitable to go residential. There are huge construction costs to make this transition, plus downtime where the building is empty and design costs. Residential is also less money per sf by ALOT.
The last and most important point is the value of commercial space versus residential. If you convert a building not only do you lose SF to get legal light and air plus egress for each unit, you lose huge value on the sf you do keep. This drops the value of your overall portfolio which you use to gain credit and borrow with (to the tune of tens of millions). These buildings are not all about cash flow for owners. They are giant stores of wealth for credit and borrowing.
LikesBallsDeep t1_j667e6f wrote
You are stuck in 2019 world.
The old trend line of office space value is permanently gone. Adapt or perish.
Anyway, this is about allowing those that want to to do the conversion.
If you are right, nobody will want to, so no harm done, right?
ehsurfskate t1_j677lji wrote
I’m not stuck anywhere and in my profession change and churn equal profit, I also work from home 3 days a week so not sure what you are on about.
I’m not sure why you are assuming it’s permanently gone either. Just as it changed to more wfh it can change back again. I hope it doesn’t but if we hit a recession and people need work they will go into the office if required.
I’m not saying it should not happen. I hope it does. I was just adding some context to the wide eyed people of this sun who may not know much about the commercial real estate market inner working besides - yay wfh new paradigm and yay more housing
cavalryyy t1_j63kis1 wrote
I’m super on board with the idea of the conversions, but I’m curious how do you think they could handle the “everyone but me” mentality? Afaik it’s not like we have 60% of office buildings completely full and 40% completely empty. So if you own an office building and you hear that all the government is trying to get all the offices near you to close down, then by saying “okay everyone but me should close down, I’m going to stay open” you can usurp all their business.
Of course, it becomes highly irrational when everyone has this mentality, but it’s the same reason that people speed in traffic and cause more traffic. If everyone agrees, then everything’s great. But if everyone agrees, then the best strategy for me specifically is to not agree. But then this is true for everyone, so in reality no one (or a lot of people) decline.
LikesBallsDeep t1_j64bt96 wrote
Sure, there's a bit of playing chicken with your competition.
If you and every other office owner are in the same boat, the question is do you convert first and lose less money waiting, maybe get more incentives, tap into the housing market when supply is still tight, or do you wait till your competitors do it and remove their office inventory from the market, maybe making yours more attractive again.
I think market dynamics have their faults but they're pretty good at finding that balance through pricing pressure, so I don't actually see this dilemma as a major concern. Or at least, it's not a reason to move forward with these conversions as an option.
newestindustry t1_j614ly9 wrote
>If office building owners don't want their property used for residential, what will the City do? Seize the property? That will mire the City in years of costly litigation, and by the time it's settled, new housing buildings could be halfway done.
If the office buildings are empty, as they are now, why wouldn't the entities who own them want to allow for conversions to residential? Do you think they're going to wait around forever for office tenants who aren't coming?
OrangeSlimeSoda t1_j615jpd wrote
We're currently seeing carrot-and-stick attempts by office tenants to compel their employees back into the office. Office occupancy was at about 47% at the end of 2022, and probably won't go above 60%. What we will likely see is re-negotiated leases to the benefit of commercial tenants. We might see some of that space converted to other uses - yoga studios, medical offices, classrooms, etc.
There's a bunch of reasons why office landlords won't want their offices converted to residential. First, the cost of converting them into a dorm-like situation would offset the benefits. Second, their lenders might bring a lawsuit against them depending on what their mortgage says. Third, there's a bajillion liability issues that comes with it, in particular ensuring the physical safety of tenants (I can't imagine many single women would feel safe living like that). Fourth, there's a far greater likelihood of damage being done to the building if it's used for residential purposes. Fifth, existing commercial tenants won't like sharing the building with residents living in what are effectively dorms.
As I mentioned in another comment, trying to compel office landlords to convert will be an expensive and time consuming process. I think that that energy and cost is better served in an aggressive re-zoning effort, which is one of the major impediments to building affordable housing in the City.
newestindustry t1_j617n4v wrote
>There's a bunch of reasons why office landlords won't want their offices converted to residential.
All of these hinge on the offices being converted into dorms, which I have never seen anyone but you suggest will happen.
>As I mentioned in another comment, trying to compel office landlords to convert will be an expensive and time consuming process.
I think letting your office space sit empty while you look for nonexistent tenants is also an expensive and time consuming process.
OrangeSlimeSoda t1_j619f7d wrote
> All of these hinge on the offices being converted into dorms, which I have never seen anyone but you suggest will happen.
Because the cost of gut-renovating office spaces into fully-function housing units is cost-prohibitive. Merely from a physical standpoint, it would entail ripping down and re-erecting walls, re-wiring things, upgrading plumbing, providing gas, re-configuring things to work around elevator banks, etc. Turning them into dorms is the most cost-effective and expedient solution for a landlord.
>I think letting your office space sit empty while you look for nonexistent tenants is also an expensive and time consuming process.
The office landlords really don't have a choice. They are bound by legal obligations to their lenders, municipal regulations, and zoning laws to only allow their spaces for offices. It would be more expensive to convert the office space into a residential unit than to try to flip it to a different kind of office use.
newestindustry t1_j61bisc wrote
OK well I'm gonna be real with you, I think you kind of just made this whole dorm thing up. NYC has been converting office to residential in Lower Manhattan for decades now, none of them are dorms.
Needs0471 t1_j620vvv wrote
Yeah, this whole sub thread is just bullshit. It’s not like the task force that wrote the plan is ignorant of the very obvious challenges.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_j64dimr wrote
This is the same administration that wants to forcibly hospitalize homeless people without expanding outpatient care. I wouldn’t put it past them to be that stupid.
Revolio_ClockbergJr t1_j61monk wrote
> Merely from a physical standpoint, it would entail ripping down and re-erecting walls, re-wiring things, upgrading plumbing, providing gas, re-configuring things to work around elevator banks
These are all things they would do anyway. What else does “conversion” mean, if not these tasks?
Skip gas, do electric. Plumbing would be weird but nothing that hasn’t been done before.
Yes, dorms are more cost effective… until they sit empty like the offices.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_j64drl2 wrote
I think they’re saying it would take far more resources doing that than simply tearing the building down and doing it from scratch. Office buildings are built to hold, well, offices, not apartments.
LikesBallsDeep t1_j61hab6 wrote
Nobody's saying gut renos are cheap but.. have you seen the price of getting ANYTHING new built in NYC in general?
Very expensive can still be better than absurdly, astronomically expensive for a new build.
brownredgreen t1_j6137gt wrote
I dont believe that the private sector is the solution.
I dont care if they are on board.
Housing, like healthcare, is a 100% MANDATORY HUMAN NEED
Maybe having MANDATORY HUMAN NEEDS being a profit machine for.rich fucks is a bad idea.
If building owners want their property to sit vacant, that's their decision, sure.
We should definitely pass a Vacancy Tax tho, to encourage them to get on board.
They wanna just pay absurd taxes on empty buildings paying them no rent? Their.choice.
OrangeSlimeSoda t1_j614nrx wrote
I'm not arguing that housing is a mandatory right, but the plan simply isn't feasible because of (1) physical issues (i.e. how the building is built - and don't even get me started on the personal safety problems that this would cause) and (2) legal issues. If the private sector doesn't want to cooperate, then providing housing at all is far more difficult. The City doesn't build housing, but provides incentives for private companies to do it.
The State allowed a tax bill that provided a temporary tax abatement (not tax forgiveness, but abatement) expire without a replacement in 2022. That will further compound the crisis.
brownredgreen t1_j615dx0 wrote
The City is capable of building housing tho, right? They have outsourced that to private companies via incentives, but they COULD right?
Trying to find a way for the Owning class to squeeze money out of.people trying to have a roof over their head, is gonna end badly for everyone except the property owners.
Doesn't seem like a good plan.
akmalhot t1_j61ovyz wrote
have you seen nycha housing and management?
parkerpyne t1_j61ikz0 wrote
>The City is capable of building housing tho, right? They have outsourced that to private companies via incentives, but they COULD right?
With what money? Neither municipal, nor state nor federal have any. The US at the federal level alone is approaching a trillion dollars in interest payments this year. It's the least productive way to spend money and yet, everyone constantly looks at the administrations to solve problems. Every time they do it, that slice gets bigger.
damnatio_memoriae t1_j62njzo wrote
yeah but the property owners are the ones dictating the plan so it doesn't matter if it's a good plan or not, it's the plan we're gonna get.
valoremz t1_j624s6j wrote
Can someone elaborate on why anything has to be done with empty office space? I assume that whoever is leasing the space is still paying for it even if employees aren’t coming in, no?
I’m genuinely curious. What should a government do about empty offices that are not being used but are being paid for? And if they’re not being rented, then doesn’t that simply mean the landlord is still on hook for the monthly mortgage and property taxes?
damnatio_memoriae t1_j62nsq8 wrote
leases don't go on forever. we're nearly three years into the covid era. certainly leases have expired in that time or been broken, and as time goes on, surely more will expire.
[deleted] t1_j63bwxe wrote
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