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pigeonsmasher t1_ixdn2me wrote

I teach part-time at CUNY. I don’t think people, especially students and parents, understand how bad this situation has become. The wages and organizational structure really are abysmal. We’re talking like $200-300 a week in the worst cases, and that’s only for the 30-32 weeks class is in session. Profs get second jobs, gradually those second jobs become first jobs, and teaching becomes an afterthought. Meanwhile some talentless paper shuffler is collecting six figures and funding a comfy lifestyle in Jersey while contributing zero benefit to the students subsidizing them.

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sysyphusishappy t1_ixeukzc wrote

The problem is that so many people accept these low wages since they have trust funds, etc.

>Meanwhile some talentless paper shuffler is collecting six figures and funding a comfy lifestyle in Jersey while contributing zero benefit to the students subsidizing them.

That too.

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pigeonsmasher t1_ixezayv wrote

It probably happens, but I don’t know any adjuncts that are cruising by on their parents’ money. Or any that I would even suspect of that. Almost all of them are over 40, for one. Everyone is gigging, has a breadwinner spouse, or is a bored retiree.

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___pa___ t1_ixh9e3k wrote

It happens but not at CUNY. Besides my time at CUNY I have taught at two other institution of ivy league caliber and that is where you find the independently wealthy adjuncts and professors.

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johnniewelker t1_ixemnaw wrote

I’m not sure I’m following the maths. So is it $300/week for one course taught or per credit? How much would someone teaching 2 classes worth 3 credits each make per semester.

How much do full time faculty make per week and what’s the difference in workload?

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___pa___ t1_ixh96tu wrote

Currently adjunct pay for a typical 3 credit class for a semester is around $5000 gross. Divide by 15 weeks and that is $300 a week. That is for 2-3 hours class time plus time for prep, grading, etc. Averaged it would probably be let's say 5 hours a week. Adjuncts are not required to perform university service not scholarship (publish or perish), only teaching. They can max at 9 credits per semester, so $30k per year. It is NOT a full time job, and any adjunct that thinks that needs to do the math. They do get benefits however after a number of semesters.

Full time faculty teach what is essentially an adjunct full load, plus are required to perform college service (office hours, student advisement, administrative tasks, committees, this kind of thing) as well as scholarship (research, lab work, grants, publish, etc). Each of those other two items take about an equal time as teaching, perhaps slightly less. Full pay has a range but typically falls within the $80k-$120k range per year. Not really high living but manageable with the benefits. Many consult on the side and CUNY allows for 8 hours per week outside work. PhD plus experience is required to be a full-time professor.

Source - CUNY professor and this is all publicly available if you look it up.

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kiklion t1_ixhme5e wrote

So it sounds like the main issue is that adjuncts are capped at 9 credits a semester. Do you know why?

It’s generally a lot easier to get more hours at one job than to pick up a second job where scheduling may clash or an extra commute from a to b.

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___pa___ t1_ixhp1dz wrote

Well, I don't have a good reason why they would be capped at 9 hours but it might be a combination of a few things. First it would look odd to teach more than a full time person. Second, adjuncts often teach to an expertise and there might not be enough classes in that area to offer more. Third, three classes is sometimes a healthy portion of classes in one subject and students should have some variety in professors. There are probably other administrative reasons but those are the ones from the teaching side I can imagine. But I don't think allowing them to teach more will help the problem. 9 credits implies about 20 hours a week including grading and answering emails and prep. So even 18 credits per semester twice a years is $60k and one would be hard pressed to live well on that especially if one had the qualifications to be a professor. Except in some fields, you can often find a job making twice adjunct pay easily. I just do not see being an adjunct exclusively as any way to try to live in NYC, unless you have money already and do it for other reasons.

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kiklion t1_ixhq88y wrote

Thanks for your insight.

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___pa___ t1_ixqe1lg wrote

Of course. It takes some time in the system to understand how it works, and different universities are different, so it might vary. Teachers in general should be paid more, all the way down to Pre-K, but that's how thing are. We as a society are willing to pay 100x more to people who manipulate financial numbers for a living than teach our kids... It's unfortunate.

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johnniewelker t1_ixemozv wrote

I’m not sure I’m following the maths. So is it $300/week for one course taught or per credit? How much would someone teaching 2 classes worth 3 credits each make per semester.

How much do full time faculty make per week and what’s the difference in workload?

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pigeonsmasher t1_ixeukv2 wrote

I’ve been there for awhile but I believe the starting rate is still $60-70 per hour, 3 hours per week per class, for 16 weeks. So that comes out to something like $3500 per course.

I’m not sure how much full-time faculty are making—north of $60k a year, not sure by how much. Typical courseload is 6 per year AFAIK. So that comes out to $10k per course. It might be 8 per year/$7500 per course.

The workload is virtually the same, which is the cause of much uproar across departments. Even the full timers generally agree and are vocal about the disparity.

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johnniewelker t1_ixextc9 wrote

Yea that seems like a raw deal for part timers. Aren’t full timers required to do research or publish?

All in, even if each student pays $3K per class at 20 students a class. Paying faculty somewhere between $3.5K to $10K is very light. Teachers might be better off creating their schools and teach a class of 10 people online or to the students home.

This is insane.

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pigeonsmasher t1_ixey2ah wrote

Right, the research and publishing is where the rest of that money is “earned.” For however valuable that is.

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___pa___ t1_ixh9vfs wrote

I posted a detailed breakdown above. Full time professors at CUNY are not living high on the hog believe me. We don't have coaches or a big time law or medical school, so the "professors" that make over $150k a year are few and far between. This is all publicly available if you do a search and as of this moment our absolute cap on the highest paid full professor with 20+ years at CUNY is $141,858. That does not include extra pay for being the chair of a department or distinguished professor or anything. For that add about $25,000 more. So if everyone is upset about high pay in NYC, I don't think looking at professors is where we should be looking...

Edit - by the way The New School is a private school NOT a CUNY school.

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[deleted] t1_ixdz4c7 wrote

[deleted]

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pigeonsmasher t1_ixe8vko wrote

University admins who set their own salary, make more than teachers, and create little value for the university

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___pa___ t1_ixhalrh wrote

I don't know about New School, but at CUNY the admin don't set their own salary it has a very well defined set of rules. This is all accessible to the public as we aren't a private school. Where we get hit is overtime, and since us professors don't get overtime, and most office admin don't come in on weekends or nights, it is one area that once can see very high ($250k) salaries or more... facilities. I have seen "building engineers" making more than our college president every year.

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sanjsrik t1_ixej7t8 wrote

Isn't that the point of useless admins?

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SumyungNam t1_ixdzaw8 wrote

Terrible and what's the tuition of this school...where all the $ going?

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The_CerealDefense t1_ixe0un4 wrote

Tuition is high, and no idea where they money goes, but the school got absolutely destroyed money-wise during covid and had to stop basically improvements upgrades and such.

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PersonalFan480 t1_ixoua5z wrote

Mostly admin costs and vanity construction projects. Spending on administration has doubled as a percentage of college expenditures, while spending on direct education such as instructor salaries has fallen by almost 50%. Some colleges now spend twice as much on admin as on academics. Every college now has its presidents, vice-presidents, deans, and sports coaches each getting a million dollars or more in compensation, and each requiring their own expensive staff, and each pushing for cushy sinecures for their friends and acquaintances.

Realistically, for the tuition charged nowadays by a typical American private university, a half-dozen students could pool their money and hire a world class specialist to personally tutor their small group full time.

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yossarrian34 t1_ixe1xtz wrote

I’m willing to bet that if the part-time faculty turns down this offer, the school will make yet another “final” offer in the future. Keep up the good fight!

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Kayaker170 t1_ixhg6qi wrote

When I was an adjunct I was working in a research lab and teaching was for fun and a few extra bucks. The role of adjuncts was never intended to be a full-time job. Adjuncts we’re hired to fill in gaps when full-time faculty were on leave. Or, to have someone with specialized knowledge offer a class that was outside the expertise of the full-time faculty.

Sadly, school admins figured out that adjuncts are way cheaper than full-time faculty members. I’ve been both and ain’t no one getting rich on an academic salary. And anyone trying to make a living as an adjunct is going to be struggling mightily.

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___pa___ t1_ixhksfm wrote

As someone in academia for 25 years, I agree completely. I believe that adjuncts should be people that have a full-time job (the younger people typically) and/or run their own business (the older people typically) and do it for enjoyment or to give back to academia. Trying to make a living as an adjunct would not be advised in my point of view. I have seen it done and the person had to teach full adjunct loads at three schools to do it. Imagine the schedule and commute!

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MLao_ t1_ixeocp1 wrote

What was the final offer? A Pizza Party every Friday?

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doctor_van_n0strand t1_ixetm1e wrote

Imagine running the bakery, offering your bakers wanting some of the bread a nice hearty bowl of sawdust instead, while pointing an unloaded gun and telling them it's the best you can do.

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