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fbtcu1998 t1_ir7zsov wrote

Australia did this. They spent around 600M and got 630k guns, which represented about 20% of total firearms.

If we did the same thing and recovered 20% at the same cost/gun, it would cost us 40B. That 40B would take us from 400M guns to 320M guns....I just don't see any politician championing spending 40B to barely make a dent.

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MountNevermind t1_ir86oc8 wrote

Reducing gun deaths by 20 percent is pretty close to ten thousand lives a year. Or roughly 90s level.

Doesn't seem like something best characterized by barely making a dent.

The US spends a lot more on a lot less useful things.

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fbtcu1998 t1_ir87lez wrote

you wouldn't reduce gun deaths by 20%, you'd reduce legally owned guns by 20%. assuming the ratio of deaths to guns would remain the same (which I'm doubtful it would since most gun crimes are done with illegally owned firearms), it would be closer to 2000/year, or 5% reduction. But then you'd have to look at deaths from other things to see if you're really saving lives or you're just shifting them to a different cause of death.

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MountNevermind t1_ir8873q wrote

Interesting that you didn't continue to discuss Australia, since you brought it up.

Because assuming a 1:1 ratio is conservative next to Australia's experience.

They experienced a 57 percent drop in firearm suicides and a firearm homicide rate drop by about 42 percent.

From reducing access by 20 percent. Similar results would save around 25 thousand lives per year in the US.

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/hub/sbnu_logo_minimal/441/touch_icon_iphone_retina_1000_yellow.755.png

The TSA budget is 7.68 billion a year for what amounts to security theatre.

Calling this kind of actual leadership a drop in the bucket is just objectively wrong especially considering what we waste money on.

Gun violence costs the US an estimated 557 billion a year.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-27/gun-violence-costs-the-us-economy-557-billion-a-year-hits-company-revenues

If it achieved what it achieved in Australia it would pay for itself many times over.

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fbtcu1998 t1_ir893ps wrote

The data I saw did show a reduction in those categories, but two things to keep in mind...they were also reducing before the change, so it could have been the trend they were already seeing. And they saw an increase in other causes of death other than firearms as well. There just isn't enough to say their buy back program was the cause of the reduction.

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MountNevermind t1_ir8a5jk wrote

The firearm deaths by suicide were trending down before 1996, the firearm homicides were decidedly not.

https://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi269

It's obvious what the long term impact was.

But I completely believe in people's ability to explain things away to themselves.

The homicide rate has dropped precipitously since the change had time to take effect.

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AUS/australia/murder-homicide-rate#:~:text=Australia%20murder%2Fhomicide%20rate%20for,a%209.57%25%20decline%20from%202016.

At a certain point, you have to look the obvious in the face. Thanks for bringing Australia up. It's an excellent example.

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fbtcu1998 t1_ir8pqax wrote

>the firearm homicides were decidedly not

Unless I'm reading it wrong, firearm homicide rates went from .44 to .23, from 91-95 then a sharp increase in 96 probably driven by the mass shooting that killed 35 people...which was about 10% of total gun deaths for that year that prompted the change. So .44 to .23 in 5 years prior to the change, then .28 to .14 in 97-01. So a .19 drop in 5 years prior, and then a .14 drop in the 5 years after.

Thing is, you're looking at aggregate numbers while ignoring prior trends and other factors to force a causal relationship. Problem is, not everyone sees this....so its not as obvious as you claim.

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/1996-national-firearms-agreement.html

Here's a snippet:

"Most other studies have examined the NFA in its entirety and have examined changes in the trend of outcomes and whether the NFA caused a change in the trend. From these studies, it is difficult to estimate a causal effect of the law."

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MountNevermind t1_ir8w0fk wrote

So you're citing something that says simply that from these studies it is difficult to estimate a causal effect of the law to mean that the studies found that it didn't have a causal effect for the very distinct effect (that it fully recognizes) that followed. That's misreading several important aspects of that sentence.

You are most assuredly reading it wrong if you're using the second source I just cited. That's not firearm homicides for one. I specifically chose that source in response to your claim. You made a claim that the effect of other types of homicides increased as a result of the drastic firearm homicide rate decrease. I cited a source that showed whether that's true or not, the overall homicide rate went down, dramatically...so I'm not sure what your point was. I mean your point was clearly to suggest other homicide causes went up as gun causes went down negating the effect. But that's not even remotely the case. Again, you're throwing a bunch of talking points out there that appear to make sense...but they just don't upon inspection. To then baselessly claim I'm the one misusing data is rich.

The overall homicide rate was more or less constant until a few years after 1996. There was no general trend of its decrease as you've claimed. You can claim otherwise, but again, I've just cited a straightforward source showing you're wrong about that. Your own source is consistent with my source on this topic.

Again, there was no real trending down of firearm homicides or homicides (beyond a very slight one four years prior to 1996 if you squint at that logarithmic chart real closely), that's simply not the case, as I've already cited. I ceded that there was a trending down of firearm suicides the predated making firearms 20% less available to Australians. As cited, it went down even more rapidly after that. You tried to lump in homicide deaths trending down to suggest it applied to firearm homicides beforehand...but that's again misuse of information. There was an overall decreased in suicides that started previously, which accounted for pretty much any change in "firearm deaths" prior to 1996.

>The greater declines in nonfirearm homicides led the authors to doubt whether any changes can be attributed to the NFA.

How does it follow that nonfirearm homicides declining as well as firearm homicides declining means that the changes can't be attributed to the NFA? The authors don't explain this hunch at all they simply toss it out there. An unsupported assertion is all that it is, one that doesn't logically follow. Guns are a force multiplier. They make the use of deadly force far easier than other available forms of homicide. This is why they are useful militarily and for self-defense. It would be entirely expected that the overall homicide rate would drop as a result of making firearms less available. These authors, without further comment suggest the opposite. That's horseshit.

>Overall conclusion: Only one study (McPhedran, 2018) provides convincing statistically significant evidence that firearm homicides changed after implementation of the NFA—specifically, that there was an absolute reduction in female firearm homicide victimization.

Notice the loaded language here. Their overall conclusion makes sure to state that the study in question provides CONVINCING STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT EVIDENCE THAT FIREARM HOMICIDES CHANGED AFTER IMPLEMENTATION OF THE NFA. They simply insert the word "only" to diminish the importance. They found NO statistically significant evidence that firearms homicides did NOT change after implementation of NFA. A study that finds nothing is not the same thing, particularly if the authors aren't claiming it was more rigorous than the study they describe as convincing and statistically significant.

It's ridiculously clear from their own graph that the downward trend they manage to claim for firearm related homicides for a period of like 4 years before 1996 accelerated quickly afterward. They make no claim as to what that trend might be due to nor do they mention it was all of 4 years which hardly makes for much of a substantive trend, or why it should be continuing for decades. The pre-1996 trend on their own graph amounts to a very small dip right before 1996 not some sort of long lasting downward trend and certainly not at the degree the trend continues after 1996.

>Overall conclusion: Suicide rates, and particularly firearm suicide rates, decreased more rapidly after the NFA and the 2003 handgun buyback program compared with before passage of the law. This finding, along with the finding that firearm suicide rates declined more in regions where more guns were turned in, is consistent with the hypothesis that the NFA caused suicide rates to decline. However, these effects took place during a time of generally declining suicide rates in Australia. The fact that the observed reductions in suicide do not appear to be limited to firearm-related suicides raises questions about whether declines in suicides are primarily attributable to the NFA or whether other social forces, such as those contributing to pre-NFA declines, account for these changes.

So again your source states plainly that it's overall conclusion is consistent with the hypothesis that the NFA caused suicide rates to decline.

It then throws mud over that by saying there was already a general decline in suicide rates. What it does NOT say is that is has any evidence to suggest this previous trend is responsible for the decline seen post-NFA. It merely tosses it out there after being straightforward about confirming that it's investigations support the NFA effect on suicides. It just says it "raises questions"...which is not a scientific or objective statement about the data analyzed. You could say just about anything "raises questions". Raising questions is not a significant finding. You can find people raising questions about whether the Earth is round.

This study's greatest contribution comes from this beautiful phrase in its main conclusion:

>Most other studies have examined the NFA in its entirety and have examined changes in the trend of outcomes and whether the NFA caused a change in the trend. From these studies, it is difficult to estimate a causal effect of the law. This is because, from a design perspective, there is no adequate comparison group to serve as a proxy counterfactual; that is, what would have happened had Australia not adopted the NFA?

Wow. Thanks, we can't understand an effect because we can't measure a alternate universe where the NFA didn't happen. That's some ground breaking analysis. It's kind of hard to take this seriously. The authors make no effort to examine any other effects relevant to this issue. They are merely concerned with as they say "raising questions". Which was enough for you to cite it uncritically as something offering evidence that the NFA had no effect....

But it doesn't hold water. Not at all.

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fbtcu1998 t1_ir90m9e wrote

>You are most assuredly reading it wrong if you're using the second source I just cited

I used the first link, it showed specifically firearm homicides/suicides. You claimed firearm homicides were not trending down, but they were until 1996 when they spiked, because of the mass shooting. But I was wrong, that one event didn't inflate the homicides by 10% it was more like 30%.

>The overall homicide rate was more or less constant until a few years after 1996

Fair enough, point conceded. I was going from memory and got it wrong. Might have been thinking of non firearm related suicides, they seemed to go up but either way I was wrong about homicides shifting to other causes. But I was refuting your claim that FIREARM homicides were not declining before 96, more so than trying to support my claim of the shift. the first link you provided shows they were declining prior to 96 (table 2). Keep in mind, you initially said firearm homicide rates, I replied to that.

>They simply insert the word "only" to diminish the importance

So one study says yes, the other studies say 'not sure', but we're supposed to take the one study and ignore the others? Also they didn't use the word to diminish the importance, they used it signify there was only one study that supported the claim of a causal effect, the others did not.

as far as your issues with the conclusions they came up with or their methodology, or language, etc. take it up with them. I'm sure you trust your sources, over me. And I'll take Rand over you. And they say that only ONE study showed a causal link, the others did not. That was the heart of my argument when you said the results were obvious. Yes they saw a decline post 96, but they were already seeing a decline so you can't say the NFA caused the decline.

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MountNevermind t1_ir914xd wrote

Look. If you are going to mislead like that we are done here. The source in question clearly shows no downward trend in firearm deaths of any real note. The spike has nothing to do with it. Ignore it if you like.

This is getting silly.

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fbtcu1998 t1_ir9186z wrote

It was your source. Are you saying the numbers are wrong?

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MountNevermind t1_ir92186 wrote

I'm saying what the source says is plain. What you're doing with the numbers is beneath you and not worth my time to point out.

This isn't in good faith clearly and is a waste of further effort.

EDIT: What you're doing isn't difficult or honest. We're done here.

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fbtcu1998 t1_ir92k2s wrote

Well, you linked it…it showed firearm homicide rates declining from 91-95, sharp rise in 96, then declining 97-01. Your own link refuted your claim that they were not declining before the NFA. The only reason spiked was an anomaly that vastly drove the number in 96. But sounds like you don’t want to acknowledge it was an anomaly, which I find disingenuous so yeah, guess we’re both done

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