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Ligma_Bowels t1_jb1ogko wrote

Reply to comment by code_archeologist in Dozens of Israeli reserve pilots ditch drill to protest judicial overhaul by Dirty_Quesadilla

The military refusing orders from the civilian government is usually a sign that the government has lost legitimacy in the eyes of its citizens.

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Areljak t1_jb1tz9c wrote

There are many potential reasons for something like this, including the military (or parts of it) developing its own political ambitions, being beholden to another power in some manner or seeing itself in a role which might require disobedience under certain circumstances... To name a few.

In this case it would be a sign of grassroots opposition to the ambitions of the ruling coalition.

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SorryPiaculum t1_jb273wa wrote

When you have a ruling government actively trying to weaken their countries judiciary, military protests sound pretty reasonable. Any attempt to weaken a democracies system of checks and balances should be seen as an attack on democracy itself.

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ParaBrutus t1_jb26aed wrote

They just had an election in November. It’s a slippery slope whenever the military refuses to follow orders from democratically elected leaders, particularly when they are protesting judicial reforms which are arguably legal but that they don’t like. It’s one thing for soldiers to refuse unlawful orders and another for them to refuse to follow orders, in general, because they don’t like the policies of their civilian leaders, in general. These are not 18-yo conscripts, they are pilots with a lot of training and responsibility.

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Areljak t1_jb29vt6 wrote

They are reservists who serve voluntarily.

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Tersphinct t1_jb3w2ne wrote

Reserves are mostly mandatory in Israel, not voluntary.

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LongGrift t1_jb57tzx wrote

They volunteer for more days than what is mandatory

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Tersphinct t1_jb59bg5 wrote

Many are "volunteered" without their knowledge. My dad got caught up in one of those schemes, and they basically excused it with saying they didn't wanna bother him with the paperwork where he asks to volunteer, so they just filed it for him an told him to show up for more days than he was supposed to.

Very few actually volunteer on purpose.

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ParaBrutus t1_jb2d0jd wrote

The entire US military is voluntary—that doesn’t give them the right to decide what drills they want to attend. They may have volunteered to be reservists but they are still required to follow orders while in the reserves. Maybe because they are pilots/officers they can voluntarily resign from the reserves.

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Morat20 t1_jb22hsd wrote

Israeli practices universal conscription, so everyone serves.

With...some exceptions. Obviously they don't allow Arab citizens who are Christian or Muslim, but there is also a long-standing religious exemption that heavily favors the ultra-orthodox sects. I understand they've been trying to repeal that for like two decades (with the last attempt I heard of struck down by the courts).

So in practice the military service isn't quite that universal.

The military, in practice, is the civilian populace between certain ages PLUS career military of all ages MINUS any non-Jewish Arab citizens, MINUS some chunk of the more right-wing and ultra-othrodox sects.

Which is a bit of a different kettle of fish than, say, a purely professional military like the US uses.

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TheInsaneC t1_jb25577 wrote

>Obviously they don't allow Arab citizens who are Christian or Muslim

They can volunteer. But why would they?

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onecrazyguy1 t1_jb2kqla wrote

Because there are many Arabs in Israel who are proud Israeli citizens. Among Arabs in Israel, feelings are very diverse, some want to be "Palestinian," some don't identify with that at all and want to be "Arab Israeli."

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Blofish1 t1_jb47sj4 wrote

In some communities, a military career is also a good way to get ahead economically

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nygaff t1_jb2eaxb wrote

That's not true at all. The IDF conscription is for all citizens, regardless of their religion. There are even Druze and Bahai who serve.

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Morat20 t1_jb2qopz wrote

Go ahead and read what I wrote again.

Note the phrase "MINUS some chunk".

Those exceptions exist -- and more. I didn't list all of them, just a few.

And people use them. Not everyone who qualifies will use one, but plenty do.

Druze, for instance, have a full conscription -- but only men, not women. A number of Yeshiva students utilize an exemption (Torato Umanuto I want to say? Young men in Haredi yeshivas can serve shortened -- 4 month-- service or none at all. And when i say "can" I mean like 99% of them don't serve. Israel has been working on that for awhile to remove the exemption but last I checked it was still there in practice).

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ParaBrutus t1_jb25o4q wrote

While Netanyahu is certainly unpopular on Reddit, he just won election in Israel three months ago and these judicial reforms were not a surprise. The military defections/protests are more a symptom of extreme partisan animosity in Israel than a failure of democracy.

Frankly, the reforms Netanyahu is advocating for are pro-majoritarian by allowing the Knesset to override Israel’s supreme court’s rulings by simple majority vote. What benefits Netanyahu now could just as easily be used by more liberal governments to undo these laws with a simple majority after future elections. The ability of legislatures to override court rulings in Europe is the norm and is relatively uncontroversial—the British high court cannot override parliament, and the French code is the supreme law of the land—the courts merely enforce the code as it is written by the legislature.

What Netanyahu is advocating for is not so different from liberal democrats in the US advocating for congress to pack SCOTUS with a simple majority vote—the reason democrats don’t like the current SCOTUS is because its constitutional rulings cannot easily be “overruled” by congress without amending the constitution itself, but the composition of the court can be controlled with simple majority votes for new appointees.

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