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chyko9 t1_j9kg9w3 wrote

Reply to comment by karkahooligan in Israeli West Bank raid kills 10 Palestinians and hurts more than 100 others. by CrackHeadRodeo

You don’t have to rely on any assumptions or guesswork, PIJ and Lion’s Den literally claimed them as members.

I assume this is the part where the goalposts move, and you say “well yea ok they were militants… but they’re freedom fighters!!11!!!”

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karkahooligan t1_j9khtng wrote

> I assume this is the part where the goalposts move, and you say “well yea ok they were militants… but they’re freedom fighters!!11!!!”

No, this is where I ask for a source, and point out that OP quite clearly states "most of them were terrorists or human shields for them" without providing any evidence at all. And what exactly does most mean? You may be ok with believing anything you read on the internet, but I don't.

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chyko9 t1_j9kqrm9 wrote

Ok here. From 28 minutes ago as of 10:16am PST.

"Various Palestinian militant groups claimed six of the dead — including the three from Lion’s Den targeted in the raid — as members."

https://apnews.com/article/politics-nablus-israel-west-bank-b29ffacdfefb473aae06542b01e0fded

It is a tragedy that others, including two old men, were killed as well. But let's not pretend like this was some random, unprovoked attack on unsuspecting, undeserving Palestinian civilians.

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thoughtsofmadness t1_j9loc5f wrote

>It is a tragedy that others, including two old men, were killed as well. But let's not pretend like this was some random, unprovoked attack on unsuspecting, undeserving Palestinian civilians.

I mean, does it matter? You seem to really be fixed on the 6 while happily completely disregarding the other 100+ casualties.

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karkahooligan t1_j9kuliq wrote

> It is a tragedy that others, including two old men, were killed as well.

And over a hundred wounded. Why did you omit that little detail?

> But let's not pretend like this was some random, unprovoked attack on unsuspecting, undeserving Palestinian civilians.

Over 100 wounded on top of the innocents killed. What exactly did over a hundred civilians do to "deserve" being killed or maimed?

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[deleted] t1_j9kzbmg wrote

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janethefish t1_j9ljek4 wrote

Neither you nor op specified "dead" up until this point.

Additionally, to nitpick, OP stated "terrorist," while the AP only mentioned claims by "militant" groups.

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dogoodsilence1 t1_j9l6i56 wrote

Lmao this is an AP news source. It reads like in the 60s and 70s in the US against the Black Panther Movement. You sound so naive lol. For fuck sakes two unarmed men were shot dead along with the Military firing missiles into the building. Any way you look at it, it is a humanitarian crisis. It’s like the 1985 Move Bombing

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BlG_DlCK_BEE t1_j9l6l0a wrote

Well it’s good to know that Israel is fine with killing “human shields”. We already knew they were fine with killing journalists, children and “accidentally” killing civilians, but intentionally killing “human shields? That’s quite an admission.

Israel has closed and/or attacked 31 news organizations and has had no problem labeling anyone they like as terrorists. They literally attacked the offices of AP and Al Jazeera.

I’m sorry if people are running out of faith in their narrative.

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Medium-Magician9186 t1_j9l1mgw wrote

Occupied peoples have a moral obligation to fight against their occupiers. You can call them terrorists all you want, but because they are under racist belligerent occupation, they have to fight, they do not have a choice, the only people with choices are the occupiers.

The only way for the violence to end in Palestine is for Israel to stop causing it. That is the objective truth.

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chyko9 t1_j9l3cu3 wrote

>Occupied peoples have a moral obligation to fight against their occupiers.

The problem here is that Palestinian fundamentalist militants are not just fighting to end the occupation of the West Bank - they are fighting to end Israel as a state, because they believe de jure Israeli territory is just as much "occupied land" as the West Bank is.

>The only way for the violence to end in Palestine is for Israel to stop causing it. That is the objective truth.

The objective truth is that Israel could withdraw to the 1967 or even the 1948 borders, and Palestinian militants would only consider it a "partial success", because they view all of Israel as "occupied territory" that needs to be "liberated". There is no evidence that the violence would stop if Israel withdrew from the West Bank - why? Because when the Israelis withdrew from Gaza, the violence did not stop, and only increased. This is the only data point that we, and the Israelis, have with which to reasonably predict what would happen if they end the occupation of the West Bank. No state in existence can reasonably expected to undertake an action like that, which it believes will place potentially tens of thousands of its civilians at risk.

There aren't really any concessions that Israel can offer to these militant groups, besides its own destruction, that will satisfy them. This is a serious problem and a major obstacle to peace.

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[deleted] t1_j9le755 wrote

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chyko9 t1_j9ljv75 wrote

>it’s all stolen land

Aside from this being both a falsification of geopolitical history and an abject denial of Jewish history & identity, as well as a tacit endorsement of ethnic cleansing, it is a completely politically insolvent sentiment today as well.

There are no concessions that Israel can offer people like you, aside from its own destruction, that will be satisfactory. So, why would Israel listen to people like you when you demand a withdrawal from the West Bank? It isn’t like you’d actually be satisfied if they did that; you want them to cease to exist.

This is just one reason why there is no benefit to listening to or paying even the slightest lip service to zero-sum sentiments like yours.

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[deleted] t1_j9ldbba wrote

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Medium-Magician9186 t1_j9lhomn wrote

I spoke no lie. your cut and paste defamation is as pitiful as it is stupid.

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[deleted] t1_j9lk6ud wrote

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Medium-Magician9186 t1_j9ln9gw wrote

shame to racism, shame to occupation, shame to genocide, and shame to all the pitiful and stupid people who encourage such depravity.

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varsity14 t1_j9l6flz wrote

>objective truth.

I don't think you understand what either of those words mean.

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Medium-Magician9186 t1_j9la9ik wrote

Again, because they are under racist belligerent occupation, they have an obligation to fight against the racist belligerent occupation they suffer under. This is a object truth of humanity. There is no honest way to spin it in any other light.

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Petersaber t1_j9ky1ho wrote

Because terrorist organisations are a trustworthy source, eh? No way they're just trying to score free range martyrs for the cause? The fact that multiple groups claim "ownership" should trigger a red flag or two.

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chyko9 t1_j9l1awc wrote

How else do you propose that the identity of the dead are obtained? If we can't trust what the IDF says, because they want to maximize the number of militants killed, and we can't trust Palestinian fundamentalists, because they also want to maximize the number of "martyrs" killed, then we're at an informational bottleneck here. However, I don't think the solution in the face of an over-abundance of caution on identifying the dead is just to revert to calling every single person killed in the raid a "civilian" - that is arguably more disingenuous than going off of potentially false numbers from either side.

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Petersaber t1_j9lb3xf wrote

There are third-party sources.

> that is arguably more disingenuous than going off of potentially false numbers from either side.

No. It's better than calling every casuality a "military aged male", or outright "terrorist", which shuts down any investigation.

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dogoodsilence1 t1_j9l8f44 wrote

It’s funny you take an American news source for what it’s worth lol. It’s like the 60s propaganda in the US against Civil Rights. If you knew anything about such state labeled “terrorist groups” like the naive user above mentions the Lions Den which was found in August 2022 after two individuals were killed by Israel forces. It’s called fighting back. David vs Goliath because Goliath (the fascist state) is trying to occupy land in the West Bank to build condos for Israel. Sounds very similar how many minorities were treated in the US back in the day to build highways and new subdivision through minority run communities

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Petersaber t1_j9lb26w wrote

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

My relatives were terrorists too... While they were hiding in Warsaw underground back in 1944.

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