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duncan345 t1_j7ck2d9 wrote

Surveyors have been burying metal markers to establish boundary lines for a long time. The Public Land Survey System started in 1785 in the US. I'm a real estate attorney and I regularly come across legal descriptions that refer to a buried rod, or an old axle, or some other metal object. A couple weeks ago I saw one from the 1800s that used an old gun barrel. It's still common practice for surveyors to set metal pins or rods into the ground to help people find boundary lines. Sometimes you'll see the head of these pins in the centerline of public roads.

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silverfox762 t1_j7d4crh wrote

In the 1980s in California I put a lot of 2' lengths of rebar in property corners for new subdivisions and property line disputes in the SF Bay Area. I've seen everything in old surveys from old axles to even a giant pipe wrench once.

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Magnergy t1_j7dwfj7 wrote

Did anyone ever come over while you were surveying and offer you a bribe to move the line a bit for them?

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silverfox762 t1_j7enih7 wrote

Nope. We were a civil engineering firm, paid well, above board, and everything was plotted by and on instruments based on county records.

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PorkRindSalad t1_j7ee9q0 wrote

I wonder what keeps people from just hammering their own rebar down and claiming that's where the line is. Wouldn't even have to remove the first one, just create enough confusion to get away with adjusting the new fence line.

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silverfox762 t1_j7enn8z wrote

Doesn't work because every property corner was based on county documents and surveys or plots from established benchmarks. For instance "corner 1 is x.xxx distance at xxx.xx.xx degrees, minutes and seconds from county benchmark 17B located in the middle of y road, x.xxx distance from the northeast corner of y road and z street". Benchmark could be a nail through a washer in the asphalt, a bronze disc set in concrete, and so on. With proper instrumentation and trained surveyors, you get the point down to 1/100 of a foot (yeah, tenths of a foot and tenths of a tenth)

Edit: and we always used county or state benchmarks and NEVER used PG&E benchmarks because for some reason most of them were in the wrong place.

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Rough_Idle t1_j7j4ju9 wrote

Yeah, utility companies are pretty terrible about starting points and property corners. What's with that? I was doing title searches in a small town and by the time I was done, the county gave me a month of free deed copies in exchange for my legal descriptions. Because they were accurate compared to the railroad and electric company markers. For the the square mile around the town square. That next year the tax assessor's database was correct for the first time in a century

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mpinnegar t1_j7fd2wq wrote

What are PG&E benchmarks?

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halibfrisk t1_j7fekt7 wrote

PG&E is a utility company in Northern California(pacific gas and electric)

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silverfox762 t1_j7gka61 wrote

An entire benchmark system by Pacific Gas and Electric. Some are just recorded using county benchmarks with PG&E surveys (which would often get you way off where they were supposed to be) or benchmarks put in by PG&E survey crews, which were just as likely to be in the wrong place according to county planning maps.

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Bonezone420 t1_j7ehpav wrote

Well, for a start, you'd have to be stupid to tell anyone you did it. So, just theoretically speaking, if anyone did this - you simply might not know because they didn't get caught.

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B_P_G t1_j7eoqhy wrote

For newer developments there's usually a plat map that gives dimensions along the edges of the lot. I think they store those at city hall somewhere. So one stake being out of place or lost wouldn't be a huge problem. And for larger plots all the states not on the east coast follow a fairly standard system. So if your land boundary is on the range line or town line or some quarter section line then that's a known thing and stake position isn't going to matter as much.

With that said, what really matters is whether it's the kind of thing that's worth going to court over or bringing in a surveyor. But even if it isn't right now it could still be a problem in the future. Stuff does get errantly built outside the bounds of peoples' property and that's a legal mess when somebody discovers it.

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outtathesky_fellapie t1_j7eowgr wrote

As another said, every marker has references (other markers) that include exact distances and descriptions. It would be trivial to figure out that someone was lying

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FoolInTheDesert t1_j7fred3 wrote

It's common in older cities. For example in Arizona, in cities like Bisbee and Tombstone, you can find multiple section corners and property corners set in close proximity to each other by different surveyors. In one case I know of 6 different pins meant to be the same point all spread out over an 8sqft area. How do you resolve this? Well a surveyor has to dig through records and try to figure out which point to hold, OR in many cases you might have to go testify in court for it to get settled because property owners will sue each other. In many cases we had to spend a day collecting control data and then had to calculate the correct pin location and set our own more accurate pin with our survey data on it. It can get complicated!

Surveyor errors are actually common and have led to many a state/national border or property line dispute and ongoing design, infrastructure layout issues, etc. to this day all over the country!

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duncan345 t1_j7jjg0k wrote

In my experience you deal with this by doing a thorough title search and getting an ALTA survey, which would show the existence of several conflicting landmarks. Hopefully you can then get a boundary line agreement with the adjoining land owners. Usually the neighbors are fine with accepting whatever they perceived the boundary line to be. Then you record the boundary agreement in your county land records so that future title searchers know the problem has been cleared up.

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Ok-disaster2022 t1_j7cy5qn wrote

They've actually needed to start updating coordinates of the markers due to continental drift in some places. They can be off by centimeters which can be ginormous legal fights.

The idea of markers to track boundaries goes back thousands of years. There are Biblical laws about not removing boundary markers.

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Sunnyjim333 t1_j7dl9vn wrote

There are field bounderies in England that have been the same since the Iron Age. I love looking at old maps and seeing roads that have been there for 160 years (In the USA that is a long time).

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Sawendro t1_j7e80n6 wrote

Can I interest you in holloways? Paths used so much they've created, basically, open tunnels over the years.

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Anathos117 t1_j7e2hgp wrote

> 160 years (In the USA that is a long time).

In some parts of it, maybe, but hardly all of it. There's a street in my town that's 400 years old.

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Sunnyjim333 t1_j7e2vtx wrote

Too cool, I like seeing Roman roads that are made better than our pothole riddled tracks we call roads.

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dryingsocks t1_j7eaxmm wrote

to be fair, the heaviest vehicle during roman times was a ox cart. with cars becoming heavier and heavier they put more wear on the street than romans ever could

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PhasmaFelis t1_j7ely23 wrote

Roman roads are interesting. Astonishing engineering, a really well-built stone road can last for millennia.

But you wouldn't want to drive on one. Stone pavers give a hell of a rough ride at any real speed, and stone is deadly slick when it's wet. For cars you really need something that's very smooth and slightly tacky, and unfortunately asphalt is the best we've come up with so far. I'll take dealing with potholes over a 30MPH top speed.

(And if we did drive on Roman roads, I don't think they'd last so long under regular 18-wheeler traffic.)

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Sunnyjim333 t1_j7gevlv wrote

Side note, Illinois was experimenting with a cork surface. We drove on some on Interstate 55, it was a smooth ride at the time. This was in 2017.

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Sunnyjim333 t1_j7e3l2f wrote

The USA is still a "young" country. We have a poor sense of time here. If a building is 50 years old it is ancient. Sadly we do not build to last. Many old beautiful buildings are torn down for parking lots, mass transit is abysmal. You have to have a car to do any traveling, walking is not possible, stores are too far apart.

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[deleted] t1_j7ebk8s wrote

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maaku7 t1_j7eu7py wrote

You can get up to about 250 years old on the west coast, e.g. the California missions. There is literally nothing older than that since AFAIK no indigenous buildings have survived that long.

At least not in California. I wonder if the PNW has some longhouses or something.

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YouTee t1_j7evtdc wrote

I think the cave dwellings in New Mexico are one of the oldest surviving human habitats in North America.

Maybe some of those mounds in... Kansas? Too

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maaku7 t1_j7ewbr6 wrote

New Mexico is not on the west coast ;)

But yeah those are good additions to the list. I've seen the Pueblo buildings and they're impressive.

Of course if you go further south, there are tons of stone buildings and pyramids in Mexico and Guatemala.

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Synensys t1_j7e3f5a wrote

The change in earths magnetic field direction has lead to a shift in thr direction of New England's famous stone field border walls.

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ThisOriginalSource t1_j7e4ri8 wrote

Can you share more information about this, or a source?

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noahjsc t1_j7eb47h wrote

I can explain this a bit as I learned a bit of orienteering from youth groups/military experience. So when working with a compass you have to actually modify the declination a bit. All this is rotating the angle markers. To determine that requires a little bit of math. This is because True North location actually moves over the years. So what he's stating is that the bearing to the location has shifted. As if you had a compass set to 0 declination which means 0 points at true north the bearing would be different.

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Quick explanation on what a bearing is. So when using a map the lines straight north are considered 0 degrees. East is 90, South is 180 and West is 270. So by drawing a line from one point to another you can use a protractor or other angle measuring tool to determine the angle.

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If the map is new and set properly to true north there is no declination set on the compass. So what you do is you rotate the right so that the angle you determined from the map is set to the front of the compass. You then rotate the compass(typically by moving yourself as you point it outwards from your body) till the north on the magnet and north on the reading align. You then know you are pointing at your bearing.

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With declination you have to adjust that angle a bit(usually compasses have a key to do it so you don't have to adjust on calculation). So on an old map you calculate declination and then when you shoot your bearing you'll still be pointed to the right location. However if you didn't calculate for declination cause true north moved you'll be facing a few degrees off.

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I'm sorry if this explanation is confusing. It's typically best done with a physical compass and map to show what i'm talking about. I tried my best to do it in writing.

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tropic420 t1_j7eel75 wrote

A physical compass and 2 or more maps of the same area some years apart, it would seem

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Synensys t1_j7fy7ne wrote

The basic idea is that magnetic north moves around over time (magnetic north and the north pole are not the same location). So if your boundary line is defined as a north south line, and you look at a compass to figure out where to put your wall, over time the direction that wall points relative to older walls, will change.

So present day scientists can use the orientation of the walls to track changes in the location of magnetic north pole.

https://theconversation.com/old-stone-walls-record-the-changing-location-of-magnetic-north-112827

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fertdingo t1_j7dl35a wrote

I would think earthquakes would be more problematic.

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ElJamoquio t1_j7dm1lm wrote

What's the difference?

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oldguy_on_the_wire t1_j7e2tbr wrote

Not the one you asked, but continental drift is a very slow process and would likely move all the land around the marker identically, with the net effect of no difference.

An earthquake OTOH would have the definite possibility of moving the marker itself thus changing the boundary lines.

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[deleted] t1_j7eubs9 wrote

[removed]

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whyenn OP t1_j7cm8qc wrote

That's fantastic. Thanks for the new term. Interesting to know a form of this is still used.

I just googled "survey pins" which led me to "property pins" which led me to "survey markers" but none of them mention a historical use of lead plates.

I've gone to Wiki for the Public Land Survey System which says that they used wooden posts, trees, and rock piles for establishing "legally binding markers" but the burying of lead plates isn't mentioned.

Appreciated, this is definitely pertinent even if not the exact thing.

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pc_flying t1_j7en24i wrote

Dropping this here because it's related, but there's no good segue in the comments yet:

There is a longstanding Wiccan practice of burying iron nails at property lines to 'pin it down' and protect from negative magic

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troyunrau t1_j7devv4 wrote

Furthermore, there are specialized tools like the Schonstedt Maggie (and similar) that are technically magnetic gradiometers -- largely referred to as "pinfinders" -- which are used by legal surveyors to find these buried corner markers on a regular basis. Doesn't help with lead, but anything with iron in it generally works.

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NotTRYINGtobeLame t1_j7duce7 wrote

I wonder if the use of lead died out due to environmental effects.

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oldguy_on_the_wire t1_j7e374r wrote

I would think any use of lead plates as boundary markers would have died out as iron (a ferromagnetic material and thus more easily located with a detector) became cheaper than lead.

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NotTRYINGtobeLame t1_j7e49v8 wrote

Well, fuck. My second thought was going to be cost concerns. Guess I should've gone with that lol I just don't know which came first, chicken or egg.

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Unique_Anywhere5735 t1_j7fc1a3 wrote

Lead holds up better in soil than most older ferrous metals. Also, it is easier to inscribe notations on lead plates. IIRC, there was a case years ago in southwestern Pennsylvania where someone dummied up some fake lead plates, "discovered" them, and fooled a local historical society.

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Max1234567890123 t1_j7dfnu4 wrote

Also, a survey marker will often have a soft metal cap, so that the ‘exact’ position can be marked on the cap. Most survey markets have an indent in the top for a surveyor’s level staff to sit on the exact position. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if this was still made of lead

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EpsomHorse t1_j7dwhnh wrote

> Surveyors have been burying metal markers to establish boundary lines for a long time.

Why would you bury things that are supposed to serve as markers? Why not put a plaque qt ground level, or drive a pin down vertically until it's half buried, or use a stone marker above the ground?

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AstarteHilzarie t1_j7e1u0v wrote

Things above ground are easily moved, intentionally tampered with, or removed by someone who doesn't realize the significance. Burying it makes it a more secure option, especially when you want it to stay put for decades or centuries. People who are looking for it can easily find it with the right tools, but it won't be bothersome to people who don't need access to it.

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Sawendro t1_j7e88c2 wrote

If the person trying to move the boundary line doesn't know about the buried marker, then it is much easier to call them on their bullshit, basically. A fence can be moved and rocks relocated, but unless you know where the underground markers are and can dig up and rebury them...

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EpsomHorse t1_j7elf1r wrote

Thanks. I hadn't considered bad faith actors.

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EmperorGeek t1_j7e2soa wrote

My mother recently bought a piece of property where one corner of the property was described as being bounded by a “buried axle”, and I was in fact able to locate said buried axle! I will say I was surprised to find that an actual axle shaft had been buried in the ground.

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The-Last-Dog t1_j7e2t5i wrote

If you have ever seen the description of a USATF certified race course, segments and turns are described as "x feet from the nail." That nail is those metal surveyor markers.

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ABoxOfFlies t1_j7eg7pj wrote

As an old chainman, I've never seen anything other than a legal sized pin used for land identification (Canada,) so this sounds pretty interesting; I've also never heard of buried lead plates.

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IndependentNo6285 t1_j7ekds4 wrote

Yep, I've worked as a survey assistant (or "chainie" due to the old chains of measurement) in Australia and they still mark boundaries in relation to buried galvanised iron posts, usually 25cm long and buried with a sledgehammer

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asajosh t1_j7fbs5n wrote

Adding on to this I used to live in northern Virginia and had the library archivist look up my neighborhood as far back as he could.

Oh some of the land plots!

"Starting from the blasted oak travel north by north west 300 paces to a burried pipe near the road...."

In my neighborhood today if you look at the sidewalks you can see survey pins embedded in there.

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daddaman1 t1_j7ff7g1 wrote

Yea I have metal rods marking my property off now. Spray painted neon orange and neon orange vinyl maeking tape tied on each one.

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AlRedditore t1_j7fo4wy wrote

So that’s why the ancient Babylonian symbols of kingship were the rod and the ruler.

Ruler I can imagine why, it established the length of the foot or unit of measurement. The rod I was not sure about…but maybe they buried it to mark the border of the field.

In ancient Egypt the symbol was a shepherds crook. Why didn’t they also use a rod? Probably because due to the annual Nile floods burying one would have been useless.

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duncan345 t1_j7jijzv wrote

A "rod" is actually a unit of land measurement. A rod is 16.5 feet. It's an old school surveyor's tool. I've heard that the measurement dates back to the Roman empire, where the soldiers were also road builders. In the version I was told, 16.5 feet was about the length of a Roman pike.

"Rods" were often a fractional unit of a "chain." A surveyor's chain is another old school tool. Chains were 66 feet in length. A chain is the same length as 4 rods. Back in the day when surveyors had more basic tools, a surveyor would start at a landmark, like a fence post, or a tree, or a metal marker. Then the surveyor would measure their compass heading and stretch out their 66 foot chain and take their measurements. When the distance got too small for the chain they would switch to the rod. A legal description written using this method would read something like "Commence at a fence post on the Southwest corner of the old Grantham tract, in the Southeast quarter of Section 32, Township 3 North, Range 4 East, thence run North 44 degrees, 35 minutes West 14 chains, 3 3/4 rods to the centerline of Redd Creek, thence run in a Northerly direction along the centerline of said creek..."

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