Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

KiyPhi t1_j1jmt1l wrote

Except I have because I also hooked them up to a 100w speaker amp with and without the adapter. It isn't up for debate because your view on this makes no sense. How is it that a speaker amp helps the sound? Explain it in detail, because there is no reason a speaker amp would help them sound better other than louder.

I can explain why it doesn't help the sound. If you can do the same on why it does, we can have a conversation. If your only argument is "because I heard it," then we don't because I doubt you did proper testing.

9

Pokrog t1_j1jri06 wrote

Well for one I spent $50,000 on speaker amps and literally every single one of them provided almost no benefits whatsoever until I asked for advice from someone with more experience than this entire subreddit combined and got a Parasound A21+. The other part of why it happens is that proper speaker amps have a huge amount of power reserve in their capacitance and dumping the amount of power needed doesn't come close to their maximum power so you're never starving the capacitors and losing dynamics because of it. The HE6 is incredibly high on current demand for a headphone and that drains capacitors really fast, fast enough that it severely gimps the amount of dynamic range due to the voltage swings being lower because of the capacitors never being fully charged and ready to discharge on headphone amps. I didn't spend $50k on speaker amps and another $50k on headphone amps only to settle on the Parasound because I'm imagining shit. I sold off every one of the amps I tried because they didn't do anything special, it's not about amount of power, it's about the ability to sustain it without keeping the capacitors in a constant scavenge stage where they're trying to recharge and never delivering their full voltage swings.

I know how to test gear, I understand volume matching and have decibel meters and even a measurement head to measure volume with a pad seal. The differences are very real and immediately noticeable, they are not subtle, anyone can hear them immediately. The problem is making a blanket statement that they need a speaker amp, but that is only half of it, they need a GOOD speaker amp and several speaker amps I tried even over $2000 MSRP absolutely sucked and provided nothing over a run of the mill powerful headphone amp. It was also immediately noticeable on the Parasound that the Hifiman HE-adapter was lowering the quality over plugging directly into the speaker taps. I have spent more time trying to perfect an HE6 chain than most people spend nitpicking audio gear in their lifetime and I don't even feel like I'm close to the end but I do know for certain that if all I had was the 789 and A90 I originally had when I first purchased the HE6, I would get rid of the HE6 because without being driven well, they aren't anything special, but when they are, I prefer them over basically every single TOTL headphone, including the 1266 TC, Utopia, D8000 Pro, Empyrean Elite, haven't owned the Susvara but have demoed then at shops on my own gear and they are incredible and I'll eventually buy a pair but they aren't the dynamics kings like the HE6, and several others in the summit-fi realm. A lot of people don't understand that they have the thickest planar diaphragm in existence and all that mass is really hard to push and even harder to push to full excursion, it takes a very fast slew rate and and capacitance to dump power fast enough to make them worth owning. The diaphragm mass is why they can slam so hard. I have done significantly more testing than your skepticism would ever allow you to believe, all volume matched and tested properly.

4

KiyPhi t1_j1jyqdd wrote

>The other part of why it happens is that proper speaker amps have a huge amount of power reserve in their capacitance and dumping the amount of power needed doesn't come close to their maximum power so you're never starving the capacitors and losing dynamics because of it.

This doesn't follow though. If the headphone amp is attenuated to a specific voltage output, the part that gets to the headphone is the same. Voltage at amplitude and frequency oscillates the driver to make a certain sound by causing the driver to move at a specific speed to a certain point of excursion. The amount the capacitors are being utilized would affect the amps ability to handle the current/the voltage it provides, but if that were an issue, you'd have less power or the power would clip/distort severely. Speaker amps, at a given voltage, are almost always less clean power than a headphone amp.

>The HE6 is incredibly high on current demand for a headphone and that drains capacitors really fast, fast enough that it severely gimps the amount of dynamic range due to the voltage swings being lower because of the capacitors never being fully charged and ready to discharge on headphone amps.

This also doesn't follow. If an amp is able to provide equal voltage at a given frequency, it won't have this issue you are describing. Add on that DR is a function of signal and noise so the thing that determines that will be the amount of voltage the amp can provide. If both can provide the same voltage, and the device isn't also outputting a lot of noise, the dynamic range would be the same at a given voltage. Also, capacitors don't have to be fully charged. The prevent fluctuations in voltage delivery due to inconsistent flow of electricity. See this video. If this were an issue, your amp would cut out intermittently. Also, voltage swings being limited is the same as voltage out being limited and is the same as the clipping issue I addressed earlier.

>I didn't spend $50k on speaker amps and another $50k on headphone amps only to settle on the Parasound because I'm imagining shit. I sold off every one of the amps I tried because they didn't do anything special, it's not about amount of power, it's about the ability to sustain it without keeping the capacitors in a constant scavenge stage where they're trying to recharge and never delivering their full voltage swings.

It is about being able to supply power. That is what amplifiers do, they amplify the power given to them by the DAC. They should do so completely transparently. I believe you hear the difference you think you hear, but I don't agree that it is because of the amp. That is touched on in this video. You like what you like, you can't argue preference, but proper testing needs to be done to see if what you are hearing is due to the reason you think you are hearing it. Currently, I would argue that it is not.

>I know how to test gear, I understand volume matching and have decibel meters and even a measurement head to measure volume with a pad seal.

This isn't how to match volume. Use a multimeter that is accurate in the audible range or an oscilloscope. This is especially true if the headphone is the same and being A/B tested through a transparent switcher. Since you are using the same headphone, what matters is the voltage out.

>The problem is making a blanket statement that they need a speaker amp, but that is only half of it, they need a GOOD speaker amp and several speaker amps I tried even over $2000 MSRP absolutely sucked and provided nothing over a run of the mill powerful headphone amp.

I disagree. There are a lot of cheaper speaker amps that are better than the touted audiophile gear.

>It was also immediately noticeable on the Parasound that the Hifiman HE-adapter was lowering the quality over plugging directly into the speaker taps. I have spent more time trying to perfect an HE6 chain than most people spend nitpicking audio gear in their lifetime and I don't even feel like I'm close to the end but I do know for certain that if all I had was the 789 and A90 I originally had when I first purchased the HE6, I would get rid of the HE6 because without being driven well, they aren't anything special, but when they are, I prefer them over basically every single TOTL headphone, including the 1266 TC, Utopia, D8000 Pro, Empyrean Elite, haven't owned the Susvara but have demoed then at shops on my own gear and they are incredible and I'll eventually buy a pair but they aren't the dynamics kings like the HE6, and several others in the summit-fi realm.

And it is perfectly fine that you feel that way and I wish you luck in finding your perfect setup but none of what you have shown is an objective thing you can say other people should follow because it hasn't been properly tested. If getting that set up makes you happy, then go for it.

>A lot of people don't understand that they have the thickest planar diaphragm in existence and all that mass is really hard to push and even harder to push to full excursion, it takes a very fast slew rate and and capacitance to dump power fast enough to make them worth owning. The diaphragm mass is why they can slam so hard.

I do understand how thick their diaphragm is, but that is also why their sensitivity numbers are what they are, which is ridiculously low. But that is already taken into account when you refer to the loudness that the amp can push the headphone to.

>I have done significantly more testing than your skepticism would ever allow you to believe, all volume matched and tested properly.

This is incorrect. Your testing was not proper.

11

Svstem OP t1_j1jqtln wrote

> If your only argument is "because I heard it"

Have you?

−1

KiyPhi t1_j1jr1dv wrote

Did you not read my previous components? I tried. It doesn't make a difference at equal SPL. Which is in line with how amps and headphones work. Have you properly tested to make sure you are hearing what you think?

6

Svstem OP t1_j1jrkhf wrote

My setup is fairly easy to A/B, I volume matched the BHA-1 output and the 4BSST2 output using my MiniDSP EARS (essentially find the level of software attenuation to speaker output that matches headphone out at 100% software volume). Granted it wasn't blinded, but it's pretty obvious and even easier than telling DACs apart ime (which I've successfully done blinded).

I also think the actual amp you use plays a role. What 100W speaker amp did you use, and what headphone amp did you compare it to? I did hear some pretty crappy speaker amps that did not compare favourably to headphone amps, for example cheaper class D stuff which distorts a ton.

1

KiyPhi t1_j1jwcmz wrote

>Granted it wasn't blinded

This is a huge issue though. For a short anecdote on that, I recommend watching the ~1 minute story from this video. There are several parts before and after that explain why this happens and why non-blind testing can't be reliably used. I recommend people watch the whole video if possible, but that one anecdote from the video is a pretty good one. The speaker is basically the guy when it comes to how hearing works.

>What 100W speaker amp did you use, and what headphone amp did you compare it to?

I don't recall the exact model but it was a NAD one, I think a bit older than their current one. Rated for 100W into 4 ohms. Headphone amps were SMSL SH-9, also used a JDS Atom, which is the 1w amp I mentioned being sufficient. I also had a Topping A50 that I used which has likewise the same.

9

Svstem OP t1_j1k5d8r wrote

Those are some of the midrange NAD integrated amps, should be okay. But I've owned the C375BEE which was their TOTL integrated for a bit and I saw significant improvements going to different stereo units like the MC225, KSA150 and the 4B. If ever you're in the Montreal area I would invite you to blind test this chain with what you consider a sufficient headphone amp.

4

KiyPhi t1_j1k6gb2 wrote

I will keep that in mind. I don't get to travel much (at all actually), but if I ever am in the area, I'll send a PM.

1

[deleted] t1_j1kp17w wrote

[deleted]

−3

KiyPhi t1_j1kpil3 wrote

>First, dismissing someone’s auditory perception in a hobby that is literally all about auditory perception is pretty silly.

I didn't dismiss it. If you read further down, I explicitly say I believe they hear what they think, I just don't agree with what they think their reason for it is.

>But second, higher powered amps make a huge difference to demanding headphones.

Any two amps that are not super flawed that are able to produce a set voltage without audible distortion, noise, or clipping, will be the same. Having more to turn on the volume knob remaining doesn't increase the sound quality. Why would it?

>Amps that don’t have enough power just can’t keep up with high current demands — bass doesn’t decay right, very dynamic passages sound congested, and yeah, you can’t get as loud.

Not being able to keep up with current demands but being able to keep up with voltage results in clipping. I have addressed that below.

>Honestly if you can’t tell the difference between a powerful amp and a run-of-the-mill chifi while driving a demanding headphone, I’m not sure what you’re doing even commenting on gear

Not being an elitist to others, that's what. I literally made a meme about people with your attitude and it was one of my most upvoted things.

Nothing in your post explains why it would make it sound better, it only shows that you need to look into how amps work.

5

[deleted] t1_j1kq12w wrote

[deleted]

−4

KiyPhi t1_j1kqmoz wrote

>How about this: there is audible distortion when an amp is being asked to drive a load beyond its ability. There are headphones that are beyond the ability of many amps. You will not see this on a sine wave sweep, but it’s clear as day with a real input signal.

But you literally do see this with a sine sweep? Though they tend to pick one signal and increase the power of that signal until it clips.

Do you understand how testing for max power before clipping works? If not, I can probably find a resource for you to learn. The way headphone amps are tested is pretty cool.

The amount of power a headphone amp outputs before this is what results in how loud it can drive a headphone. All of what you are talking about is already taken into account when I talk about two amps being set to a specific voltage output. It was what I was referring to when I said the advantage is loudness but I don't listen that loud. A JDS Atom can handle ~7v before clipping, maybe a little more if you allow for 1% distortion. That is 104dB on the HE-6. I don't listen that loud ever.

5

[deleted] t1_j1ksd5d wrote

[deleted]

−4

KiyPhi t1_j1ksku9 wrote

My part of the post where I stated that you'd need to be able to explain your stance was to avoid people who spout this and that with no substance. We don't have a conversation and your derogatory attitude is not helping.

6

Western_Judgment_945 t1_j1lk8c3 wrote

How is he being “derogatory “? By not agreeing with you? It’s his experience.

−1

KiyPhi t1_j1lkjja wrote

>Seems like people read ASR and think they’re automatically a genius that sees through the hifi BS, but if you actually just listen to the damn thing you’ll realize what a fool you are.

If that is an honest question, it is because this is assuming that I just read some ASR then think I am a genius when I am really a fool because I cannot hear what they hear despite not being able to show any counter evidence from what I showed as evidence that what they were saying was incorrect.

Also they are calling me a fool for not agreeing with them.

Derogatory is to take a disrespectful attitude, to disparage. It can also mean to try to detract from the standing of someone. Calling someone a fool for not agreeing with baseless claims is derogatory in both senses.

I reiterate, I am not saying these people aren't hearing what they think they are, I'm saying what they are hearing is not caused by what they are claiming and it is a different part of the processing chain. To prove otherwise, it needs to be properly tested. I have linked a video multiple times where one of the most expert persons discusses this very topic and why it is so important to make sure things are tested properly.

3

Western_Judgment_945 t1_j1nwo2j wrote

Thanks Mr Webster. Now go read your dictionary and listen to your sine waves.

−1

KiyPhi t1_j1nwuup wrote

So what was the point of asking that question if all you were going to do was the same thing? I don't get what you intend to do with things like this. Just ignore it and move on with your day instead of acting in bad faith.

2