fastolfe00 t1_j2dq6e1 wrote
>ELI5. Why is honey and lemon a popular cure for cold like symptoms.
Because people believe it is a cure, and this belief passes through the population as a meme.
People see demand for products containing these ingredients, and so they make them in order to profit from their sale. The presence of these products in stores reinforces the belief that they do something, and so the meme perpetuates.
People looking for validation that the products work will try the product, and then will feel better, and will conclude that the product caused them to feel better even if they would have gotten better anyway. This also reinforces the belief.
We also have a compulsion to share our knowledge with others, even if that knowledge is wrong. So anytime you ask a question like this on social media you'll find many people convinced of their beliefs who sound very authoritative telling you about the benefits of things like raw honey, lemon juice, or that magical fluid vinegar. This also perpetuates the belief.
There is evidence that a vitamin C deficiency hurts your ability to recover from illnesses. It's very hard to be vitamin C deficient unless you're on a pirate ship for a year, so vitamin C supplementation is almost always pointless. You'll just pee it out. Your doctor can tell you if you are deficient in vitamin C.
In other words, there's no actual evidence that any of these home remedies actually do anything aside from the placebo effect.
But it's also relatively harmless, and if you're drinking fluids or eating soup in order to get that bonus vitamin C or whatever the remedy is that you're taking, you're getting fluids. It's important to be hydrated when you're sick so that your immune system has access to all of your body's waterways to fight off the infection. So even if putting lemon juice or honey in your water doesn't help you directly, if it encourages you to drink more water, and reduces your stress, it's still helpful. This is why your doctor may still encourage you to try things like this at home. It makes you feel better feeling like you have some control over your own recovery even if you don't and you're getting fluids, which really is what your body needs.
syzamix t1_j2e7pbo wrote
Sorry. Are you confident that lemon has no effect? Because other answers seem to say that citric acid cuts mucus.
Who's lying? And who has any sources to back them up?
fastolfe00 t1_j2ebiwh wrote
>Sorry. Are you confident that lemon has no effect?
I am confident that there is no significant evidence supporting the claim that it does.
>other answers seem to say that citric acid cuts mucus.
I can find no supporting evidence for this.
Drinking water thins mucus. If you want to put some lemon in your water and that makes it more likely for you to drink water, then lemon can help you thin mucus.
>And who has any sources to back them up?
As with all requests for medical advice, talk to your doctor and don't listen to random people on social media. Even if someone can come prepared with a study that they feel proves them right, you have no idea whether that study says what they claim it does or whether the study was done correctly or whether it's an outlier when 10 other studies prove the opposite conclusion. Understanding how to read scientific studies is a skill they teach you in medical school. Talk to your doctor.
Lucius1213 t1_j2el82v wrote
Dude, it's no use. It's the same thing as you may get cold from cold weather. You won't convince them
syzamix t1_j2evlqf wrote
So, there are many studies that show that being cold makes you likely to catch cold.
There are double blind studies done with some people dipping their toes in cold water etc.
The hypothesis for reason is that the cold makes your immune system weaker temporarily especially in the nose. But that reason hasn't been proven. But the fact around feeling cold and catching cold is proven.
syzamix t1_j2ewqox wrote
Umm. Are you saying that sharing studies/literature is pointless? Because there might be others that disprove it? That's kind of a cop out...
The claim made by the other person is very clear and concise and something that can be tested easily. If the effect exists, should be seen in studies. If it doesn't, that can also be seen in studies.
Also if you think one can get this answer clearly from any doctor, then there must be literature around this available widely. After all, the doctor also learns from somewhere.
So I did some search and almost all articles from big universities are saying acid in lemon does help cut the mucus. Doctors also refer to these studies, right? So, maybe you need to comeback with some legitimate sources (including doctors) that say otherwise.
fastolfe00 t1_j2ezhdw wrote
> Are you saying that sharing studies/literature is pointless?
Depends on what your goal is. Scientific and medical studies are written for a specific target audience that is not the kind of person that would be asking an ELI5 medical question on Reddit.
If you're a research doctor wanting to discuss a specific finding so that you can understand how it relates to your area of research or whether to establish a new standard of medical care around it, by all means share and discuss. Reading medical studies requires a deep understanding of study methodology and the scientific method that most people do not possess.
This is why we fought an obnoxious culture war in the middle of the COVID pandemic where people were vomiting up links to all sorts of studies that they felt "proved" their side when it rarely did.
Medical doctors have this training and this background and if you want to understand how a study relates to how you should be treated for your illness, the best way to do that is to talk to your doctor about it.
> So I did some search and almost all articles from big universities are saying acid in lemon does help cut the mucus.
No you didn't. You did a Google search for "lemon acid cuts mucus" and found links to sites hawking homeopathic or alternative medicine, food blogs, and YouTube content producers. If you'd found a real research study on the topic you should be able to link it.
You can do a Google search for other stupid things, like "vinegar cures cancer" and find at least a few search results that seem to agree with what you're searching for. Just because you can find a random site on the internet agreeing with you doesn't mean it's a medical fact.
> So, maybe you need to comeback with some legitimate sources (including doctors) that say otherwise.
I'm saying no significant evidence exists establishing that these remedies are effective at anything. A very small number of studies have been conducted into things like honey (not really lemon), and they all say things like this one does in the end:
>> There is no strong evidence for or against the use of honey.
syzamix t1_j2f3d01 wrote
Man... I don't get why people hate google. Google is just the search engine and it matters what results you read.
If I went into Google scholar links or if I read publications from nature, science, harvard, Stanford, etc. it's not the same as saying random blog.
In your Google search, the first few are random blogs and magazines but then there are more reputed sources like PBS that talk about how John Hopkins is actually using vinegar for certain specific things in relation to cancer. So what did you prove?
Maybe you are bad at learning from Google searches. Doesn't mean everyone is. I myself have a good science education, a bachelor and masters from the best engineering university in my country and hold 2 patents. Why be so condescending? I think I am able to read summaries from scientific articles or even regular articles from reputed sources and understand them.
Plus the original comment took such a strong stance that lemon and honey have no effect on cough. This is so easy to invalidate with even one instance. No scientist would take such an extreme stance. It takes a lot of research and studies to be able to conclusively say something like this.
Are you a doctor who has extensively studied this topic? If no. How are you so confident that lemon/honey cannot help with cold/cough? This wouldn't be the first time that medicine have been reverse engineered from common traditional practices.
fastolfe00 t1_j2f4e10 wrote
Hey I'm not really interested in debating this any further. If you want to find evidence supporting your belief, you're going to find it. This doesn't mean it's real. The fact that you took my "vinegar cures cancer" search (which is just a fake claim I made up) and now believe there's merit to it because you found a search result that glances at the idea sideways is an example of the problem.
Talk to your doctor if you want medical advice, not social media.
[deleted] t1_j2fpxn1 wrote
[removed]
fastolfe00 t1_j2fw0op wrote
>initial strong claim that it doesn't do anything
I did not make this claim. I said there was no significant evidence that it does anything.
>I can actually find reputed sources (top tier universities) saying that it does.
I strongly recommend you have this conversation with your doctor.
>Unlike you, I do have a good science education and I like to learn.
Awful bold of you to assume you know anything whatsoever about my background, education, or professional experience.
>You are either just dumb
✌️
Boracyk t1_j2e86lf wrote
You are incorrect about it being a placebo effect in regards to just honey and lemon. Honey actually breaks down proteins ( mucus is a protein). But this only works when the temperature of the mix stays under 140f and the components stay intact. For anyone adding really hot water they are destroying it and for them it is a placebo effect. So done correctly it is very effective at killing bacteria and breaking down mucus Done incorrectly ( as most people do) it’s just a tasty drink
fastolfe00 t1_j2eby3a wrote
>Honey actually breaks down proteins ( mucus is a protein).
Even if this were true, this says nothing about whether it fights illness or reduces time to recovery.
>it is very effective at killing bacteria
Colds are not caused by bacteria.
This is junk medicine. Get your medical advice from your doctor and stop taking it from random people on Reddit.
CamBearCookie t1_j2ei8xk wrote
Raw honey specifically maunka honey is strong enough to be used as a prescription medicine for coughing. You are 100% wrong about honey having a placebo effect.
fastolfe00 t1_j2esg15 wrote
I believe you are making this up.
There is virtually no evidence that honey reduces the severity of symptoms or reduces time to recover for respiratory infections.
Really most of the evidence comes from this one review: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22419319/
But everyone citing this review as proof that honey works is misunderstanding what the study is saying. Here is the Conclusions section (emphasis mine):
> > Honey may be better than 'no treatment' and diphenhydramine in the symptomatic relief of cough but not better than dextromethorphan. There is no strong evidence for or against the use of honey.
A lot of studies come out with these "may" conclusions. They use weasel words like this because the study usually has some flaw, such as a low sample size, or some significant uncontrolled variables (eg., are you sure it was the honey or just that they drank something?). You get to scientific (thus medical) truth through multiple studies with different methodologies, and only when you get consistent agreement do you start accepting something as truth. We're not there with honey.
But even here they were talking about pasteurized honey. Raw honey specifically is never recommended medically due to the high risk of botulism. If your doctor is prescribing raw honey for a cough they should be referred to their medical board.
As I keep saying, please don't take medical advice from randoms on social media. Just talk to your doctor and stop spreading medical misinformation until you do.
CupcakeValkyrie t1_j2eqrvq wrote
I've had multiple doctors over the years suggest honey and lemon as a way of combating cold symptoms. They've never implied that it would cure the cold, only lessen the intensity of the symptoms.
fastolfe00 t1_j2eum2u wrote
The rationale is "it may make you feel better 🤷♀️". There is no evidence to indicate it's therapeutic, but if it causes you to drink more fluids, and if you subjectively feel better even if you aren't necessarily getting better, then there's no harm in recommending it.
There is actually no product on the market, prescription or over-the-counter that is known to meaningfully reduce your cough symptoms or the time it takes for you to recover from a cold. This includes things like Zicam and OTC cough syrups (dextromethorphan, etc.). The more these drugs are studied the less confidence there is that they a single thing to help you. A lot of these remedies came into use before we have today's standards for establishing their safety and efficacy.
The placebo effect is a very real phenomenon. It's not just "you're imagining that you're better". The belief that you are being helped can result in very real, measurable, physiological improvements. This typically happens because of a reduction in stress associated with the illness. When you anticipate more (and worsening) symptoms, your apprehension can release stress hormones that exacerbate them. The certainty that taking a drug will make you feel better can reduce or eliminate that stress, giving you better outcomes.
CupcakeValkyrie t1_j2fx3xs wrote
That's fine. I'm not arguing its efficacy as a treatment. You said "Get your medical advice from your doctor and stop taking it from random people on Reddit" and I'm just pointing out that many doctors do advise honey and lemon as a treatment for cold symptoms.
winnipeginstinct t1_j2ebq6z wrote
the citric acid in the lemon also helps with this. Its why a lime would actually work pretty much as well as a lemon, but an orange (which has much less citric acid, which is why you eat those without puckering up) would be less effective
for_ever_a_lone t1_j2ds1ze wrote
This is a good summary. The benefit is entirely psychological, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I remember how mom used to kiss my boo-boos as a kid and I do the same for mine, just like I make them chicken soup and let them have a little ginger ale for stomachaches. It's as much for my own anxiety about them being sick as it is for their relief; some day I expect that they will remember the comfort they felt from these little rituals when it comes time for them to do the same, even if there's no biological basis as a "cure".
ArchimedesHeel t1_j2dxnjy wrote
good answer but terrible response to an ELI5
DanteandRandallFlagg t1_j2dyorc wrote
Even though Hot Toddys work mainly on the placebo effect, it doesn't quite answer the question of why lemon? The answer is simply, it tastes good. The belief is that the alcohol will help cure your cold and the honey will coat your throat, lessening your cough. Whether it actually does is beside the point. The honey makes the alcohol more palatable, but then the drink is too cloying. If you add an acid, it tastes less sweet and has a bit of a bite. Soda has an incredible amount of sugar in it, and if it wasn't for the citric acid, most people would fit way too sweet. It is the same concept. Why lemons versus oranges, limes or even vinegar? That is a cultural thing. Other places might swap out their acids for a different one, but the only reason is to make the drink more tasty.
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