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fuck_all_you_people t1_ir11fzv wrote

I know this looks like more efficiency, but in my anecdotal experience with a thousand acre farm in Iowa there is more to it. They are beating the shit out of the ground and planting the crop rows closer together. Fertilizer and pesticide use is through the roof. Crop rotation is down in favor of corn, and corn is brutal to the ground. The dirt is light and flaky now, it doesnt look like you could plant anything in it without a heavy dose of fertilizer.

I fear some of this is short term gain for long-term pain rather than we are improving our farming effectiveness.

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J_McJesky t1_ir1kcdk wrote

This is what's been going on for decades. Nebraska has been doing this PLUS draining the ogallala aquifer to irrigate corn for a generation. We know the aquifer is emptying at an alarming rate and the state government is just like "eh, I'm sure technology will save us someday in the future, PUMP MORE WATER!" Such a "fuck the kids" mentality and I just don't get it.....

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fuck_all_you_people t1_ir1kp5e wrote

Dustbowl Part II: Electric Bugaloo

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J_McJesky t1_ir1l2ob wrote

"But didn't you hear? There's a water CYCLE! obviously all this water will definitely refill the aquifer faster than we're emptying it EVENTUALLY!"

People are so stupid sometimes it makes me want to cry.....

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dtreth t1_ir72x21 wrote

Republicans. You just described them to a T.

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s0cks_nz t1_ir3tnd2 wrote

Imagine. The most advanced society to ever grace the solar system, and our food production technique has already decimated 30-50% of our top soil in just one human lifetime.

An agricultural system that will basically exhaust the planet's fertility in less than 200yrs (from the start of the green revolution) just seems monumentally stupid. But here we are. And that's not even mentioning what it's done to insect populations both above and below ground.

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Northstar1989 t1_ir4mz8o wrote

Thankfully, this kind of thing is self-limiting.

The more expensive crops become (due to diminishing usable topsoil) relative to the cost of things like fertilizer and hiring land use experts to advise on how to reduce erosion, the more these will be used.

Looking at any trend and projecting it infinitely into the future without change is always a terrible idea.

Feedback looks exist everywhere. Trends will generally either accelerate, or slow down and level off, with time.

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b-radly t1_ir1wi9c wrote

Ok but when has agricultural production been somehow less destructive?

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s0cks_nz t1_ir3uakq wrote

Amazon tribes and their creation of dark earth for their agricultural needs perhaps? Cover crops and green manure? No-till? Turning human waste into safe fertiliser?

There are plenty of options.

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b-radly t1_ir7lgvx wrote

Unfortunately I don’t know of any system that is on the sustainable side that could produce enough food to feed the population. It’s a real bummer. Anyway it’s a big topic.

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s0cks_nz t1_ir7s77m wrote

That's the downside of expanding your population on an unsustainable agricultural system. It's difficult to transition after the fact.

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mule_roany_mare t1_ir28u1b wrote

I think eventually there will be a revolution in robotic farming.

Make a 3D grid of alternately charged DC wires to both supply power & rails to robots.

Crops are currently optimized to the machinery which plants & harvests them. With extensible & flexible machinery there isn't even a reason to have a monocrop fields, you could grow 3 sisters as easily as corn if you wanted.

Denser & more varied crops would reduce the stress of pests and your drones running 24/7 could just mechanically kill most of them.

When you do need pesticide or fertilizer it can be applied directly, dramatically reducing runoff.

Same as water, you could just inject it into the ground around the roots a few oz at time. It probably takes 10 oz to get 1 oz where you actually need it.

The coolest benefit will be continual harvest, there is no need to plant & harvest the whole field at once. You can just pluck what is ready for market & plant where a spot opens up

You could have an orchard with a dozen different fruits & grow corn below them with beans & other viney plants using them both as structure. Below all that where there is no light you could grow mushrooms.

You'd ultimately be limited by light & that can be supplemented too.

Ending corn subsidies would do a ton of good too, It's amazing that artificially cheap corn has been shoe-horned into every part of our life. From corn syrup is everything to ethanol in our gas

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signmeupnot t1_ir2ig1o wrote

More tech is the most complicated and energy intensive solution

I think farmers need to become interested in ecology instead, and everyone with land should grow most of their own food.

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CharonsLittleHelper t1_ir3wak1 wrote

>and everyone with land should grow most of their own food.

Your vision for the future is subsistence farming? lol

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signmeupnot t1_ir4j2j5 wrote

Why is that laughable?

To me its astonishing that people happily spend a lot of free time in their gardens, growing lawns and non edible flowers, instead of food.

Progress doesn't have to be a world that looks like Bladerunner.

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CharonsLittleHelper t1_ir5rhn0 wrote

Because subsistence farming means being super inefficient and poor. Civilian is based upon specialized labor.

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signmeupnot t1_ir64fxa wrote

Haha no it doesn't. It's perfectly possible to grow all the veggies and fruit for a family on a small plot of land.

That doesn't necessarily mean that every single human being needs to do that, and there can be no broad scale farming under any circumstances.

But if millions started growing food themselves tomorrow, that would take a huge burden away from the environment.

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CharonsLittleHelper t1_ir6gtp2 wrote

I didn't say that it wasn't possible. I said it's inefficient.

If you want to grow vegetables as a hobby - go for it. Have fun. The return on your labor is terrible. You're lucky to get min wage relative to just buying the same vegetables at the grocery.

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signmeupnot t1_ir6mdd7 wrote

Inefficient in what sense?

I'm saying its possible and more than efficient. But you have to change your farming style to a more natural, ecological sound approach. Which means large monocultures are out, polycultures with perennials are in, as a start.

I don't know why you talk about wage and return like it's about running a farm solely for profit. Its not. Its about growing the food your family needs firstly.

If you design your land well, the amount of work after establishing is very little. Then the amount of yield you get vs. work hours is incomparable to buying all your food at the supermarket.

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CharonsLittleHelper t1_ir6mm86 wrote

In the sense of land use and labor. Monocultures are used because it's MORE efficient. Avoiding them will make it worse.

Are there drawbacks to monocultures? Sure. But they're efficient.

Are you an anti-GMO activist too?

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signmeupnot t1_ir6o4vf wrote

They are more efficient in the sense that few people can cultivate and harvest, they are people efficient you could say.

However, the constant plowing is bad for the soil, the energy input you need in the form of massive machinery and fuels is high, energy input for fertilizer is high, fungicides, pesticides, loss of biodiversity, transport of crops and its fuel inputs and on and on. And since it's all annuals, you have to do the same every year.

So the environment is paying the price, just so a few people can do massive acrages themselves. That so called efficiency is not sustainable.

No wonder conventional farming doesn't pay.

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CharonsLittleHelper t1_ir6og5o wrote

Right - so you need a ton of labor. Which makes it basically a horribly paid job/hobby - not economically beneficial. Which was my initial point you tried to dispute.

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signmeupnot t1_ir6ptxz wrote

You didn't read my reply then. As I said, the labor of establishing is only initially, and we are not talking a massive amount of labour. Once the perennials are in the ground, they do the work themselves for years to come.

And its like you don't understand, that what you grow yourself, you don't have to pay for at the Supermarket, those savings are your reward, among the joy of growing yourself and what other benefits that brings like more nutritious food.

Food is a big part of the paycheck for many people.

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CharonsLittleHelper t1_ir6qaap wrote

Yes - all of the world's farmers are dumb and wrong. If only you were in charge of the world...

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signmeupnot t1_ir6r63a wrote

I think I'll end the discussion here, as you are going for my person, instead of giving counterarguments to my points.

Just because millions of people are doing something, doesn't make it smart. I'll leave you with that

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Car-face t1_ir4b87n wrote

>With extensible & flexible machinery there isn't even a reason to have a monocrop fields, you could grow 3 sisters as easily as corn if you wanted.

You could probably do that today, but there's subsidies that make corn favourable in the US, and entire supply chains built around corn and it's by-products.

>Denser & more varied crops would reduce the stress of pests and your drones running 24/7 could just mechanically kill most of them.

>When you do need pesticide or fertilizer it can be applied directly, dramatically reducing runoff.

Inter-row cropping for pest control is already a part of Integrated Pest Management.

Similarly, you can do this already, but IPM is a better approach to reduced pesticide use. You still need to change the regime, rather than just the delivery method, to solve the problem.

>Same as water, you could just inject it into the ground around the roots a few oz at time. It probably takes 10 oz to get 1 oz where you actually need it.

I'm not sure where that 10:1 ratio for water comes from, but Partial Rootzone Drying is already a technique used in some crops, and can be achieved with current irrigation techniques. You don't need teams of drones to do what a black plastic tube can do.

>The coolest benefit will be continual harvest, there is no need to plant & harvest the whole field at once. You can just pluck what is ready for market & plant where a spot opens up

Harvest and planting regimes aren't just dictated by the field, it's dictated by the need to get multiple crops into a growing season, and minimise the transport cost after harvest. having drones pick a row of a field at a time won't necessarily provide any benefit; if anything it'll actually reduce the crop since you're delaying planting at the beginning of the season.

>You could have an orchard with a dozen different fruits & grow corn below them with beans & other viney plants using them both as structure. Below all that where there is no light you could grow mushrooms.

orchards with multiple fruits is achievable today; a lot of orchards still utilise manual fruit picking, so it's not necessarily any better to have drones in that respect. You could probably use drones or robotics to kill off a lot of jobs, though.

The problem with things like beans growing around corn under orchards is that the beans and corn won't grow, because you've put them under a canopy. You're now maintaining multiple crops but not getting yield or a healthy crop from any of them. Conditions favourable for mushrooms are likely to cause root rot or fungal problems for the corn, or have potential negative interactions with the larger plants, and controlling conditions between the orchard and the beans and corn and the mushrooms (and the nutrient requirements for all three) is likely to be impossible.

That's not to say that it's not possible for symbiotic relationships between fungi and plants to exist; mycorrhizae are a thing and they help water and nutrient uptake in the host plant, but again - this is something already done today, without robotics.

>You'd ultimately be limited by light & that can be supplemented too.

Apart from the horrendous cost of electricity that this would add, the light pollution that would result would be massive as well. To get the level of light required on an industrial scale to extend a growth period would just be enormous.

Then there's the general downside to all mechanisation, which is spoilage/mechanical damage that results from some machinery.

In Vineyards, mechanical harvesting shortens the lifespan of the vines because of how fucking brutal the machines are. Fruit has to be crushed almost immediately, because the berries inevitably split and become open to infection or early fermentation - both capable of destroying a crop.

In softer fruits, machines simply don't exist for harvesting crops - not because the technology isn't there, but because the fruit simply gets damaged too easily. Raspberries or strawberries have only in the last 5 years had machines developed capable of harvesting them - but a grid of drones isn't part of the solution.

Even with robots, unless we're talking 100% indoor hydroponic solutions, they're simply not delivering gains outside of the current system. They might provide gains by supplementing current mass production processes, but bulk approaches are still the way forward for yield. The main benefit would be miniaturisation of harvest machinery, lower costs, auto picking and the ability to harvest faster (and perhaps AI integration to identify ripeness).

I agree with ending corn subsidies, though. That would do more for a lot of the above than any drones.

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mule_roany_mare t1_ir4i20d wrote

>you could do that today

What kind of machinery can harvest 3 sisters?

Much less anything more complicated, or crops that don’t harvest at the same time.

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Car-face t1_ir4isxn wrote

sorry I don't mean 3 sisters specifically, but in general the preference for corn is driven by economic reasons beyond machinery capability.

More complicated crops that don't harvest at the same time are still limited by other factors like soil quality and nutrient availability as well - whilst those three crops specifically benefit being grown together, it's not necessarily more efficient (or suitable) in terms of land use across various crop types (although it's still better than just growing corn everywhere as a monocrop).

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s0cks_nz t1_ir3twnk wrote

At the rate we're going they'll need drones to pollinate crops as well.

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wildfire1983 t1_ir4gz8l wrote

The scene from The Matrix of the growing fields (where Neo learns from Morpheus that humans are cultivated/grown outside of the matrix) just popped in my head... Lol

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