We talked about this in information science school but I guess people who haven’t gone to information science/library science school need to know too.

Plain text is the ultimate format. All books need to be in plain text.

Why would you want plain text? .pdf can be converted to pretty much every format you would like and is incredibly easy to read. A plain text format is inferior to a .pdf in literally every way. The various versions of .epub documents can also be converted to/from pdf with ease.

I mean, if you really like to do your reading in notepad++ then more power to you, but there's a reason that the popular formats get used.

I 100% agree, it's just that I read too much that I'd be hundreds of bucks a month, so digital is just the cheapest and most convenient version for me. Also, there are some books I read that its a lot easier to just read it digitally (you know... thooooose books)

And libraries! Being able to check out the next one in a series immediately is a pleasure I'll never get over!

Plain text is the most superior format, because it's plain text. No need to convert it to different formats, no special readers required, nothing.

With the magic of modern technology, you can of course have the same text in multiple formats! Wow!

>Plain text is the most superior format, because it's plain text. No need to convert it to different formats, no special readers required, nothing.

What does that even mean? You still need some form of word processor to read it, unless you can read binary. And I wouldn't really say that a basic pdf reader is any more of a specialized tool than a basic text editor is.

Every OS easily natively reads plaintext. It's a pain to read a lot of it, but it can be done, and manually marked up for better readability and functionality. I'm sure in the future there'll be an AI-based tool that could look at a text document and suggest possible formatting, if there isn't already.

PDF is an open format but isn't supported natively by every OS (specifically smaller versions of Linux). There's also more CPU and RAM necessary to display fonts and formatting than a plain text file. Not something we really have to worry about these days but worth considering when resources are more precious.

I don't know, which books?

I would say there are no situations where a program can't read plain text, but there are some, albeit few, situations where PDF can't be read. I have definitely opened PDFs that didn't work, or been on a device that didn't have an installed PDF reader (although that latter part was years ago). It's rare, but it happens. Just saying, plain text has always worked because it's basically universal.

>Every OS easily natively reads plaintext. It's a pain to read a lot of it, but it can be done, and manually marked up for better readability and functionality.

The Operating System is not what you're going to use to read a text file. The operating system will run an application that can read text files, but the operating system itself doesn't do that. And if there are any operating systems which are incapable of opening a pdf, then really that's on them for being poorly designed. Every Linux distro I've seen has been more than capable of launching programs that can read pdfs, and I'm struggling to think of how an OS that couldn't even launch a modern web browser would be useful for literally anything outside of incredibly specialized uses.

CPU/Ram aren't even a concern, you might experience slightly longer loading times when trying to pull up the document, but ultimately that's a non-issue that is more than offset by how much easier a pdf is to read.

Additionally, if you tried to use an AI to reformat your .txt file into something more legible, you would have to save it as something other than a .txt, because a .txt by itself cannot store anything but plaintext. And if you do that you're right back at square 1 with plaintext no longer being the ideal format. Also it would require a significant amount of processing power to run the AI.

I mean you can read plain text files with a command line interface if you really want to, on pretty much every computer ever made.

You can put that file on an IBM PC from 1981, write "type filename.txt | more". You can use the cat command on a 50 year old Unix system to read the file. If you somehow put the file on a Commodore 64, you can read it too.

It's a format that is extremely unlikely to become unreadable in the foreseeable future, regardless of where technology progresses.

Of course, for everyday use PDF and EPUB are much better. But for compatibility and archival? Can't beat plain text.

There can be issues with pdfs saving improperly and being corrupted, but the same thing can happen to a text file, or to literally any other file type.

Additionally, every modern web browser is capable of opening a pdf natively, so you don't even need a dedicated pdf reader. And if you have a computer without a web browser, then I'm curious how you're getting the books on it in the first place.

Lastly, even if you absolutely cannot open a PDF because a bandit has appeared behind you and threatened to shoot you if you open a pdf, there are still free ways to convert a pdf file to a .txt, so you could simply convert it into a text file and then read that if you absolutely needed to.

The only reason you'd run into problems with not being able to read a pdf is if you were technologically illiterate, but it would be much simpler for you to simply learn how to open a pdf than it would be for you to try to read an entire book in .txt format.

Yes, with how technology works you will be able to open older formats on both new and old computers, while old computers without updates will only work with old formats.

But if you rely on this trend to assume that all future computers will always be able to read a text file because computers have always been able to do that, then why wouldn't I be able to extrapolate from that trend and say that it is equally unlikely for future computers to ever lose the ability to read a pdf? Realistically they are always going to be able to read both.

And if you need to archive them, archiving something in a format that loses data seems questionable. If you save it as a .txt you lose italics, bold, etc. You lose chapter titles being in large font, you lose any pictures that may be in the book, you lose a lot. On the other hand, if you save it as a .pdf, all of that is retained. And if you ever need to convert it from a pdf to a txt for whatever reason, that is possible to do. I don't see why you would ever feel the need to do that, but if you want to there are numerous ways to convert a .pdf file into a .txt.

.txt will last forever

In 10 years .txt files will be readable by literally anything with a power cord. Toasters, thermostats, etc.

And in 15 those things will probably be capable of reading a PDF. What's your point?

Because plain text will always survive any change in formats, media, input device, etc. It will always be the most indexable, searchable, accessible, and transportable format.

>A plain text format is inferior to a .pdf in literally every way.

Obviously untrue.

> And if there are any operating systems which are incapable of opening a pdf, then really that's on them for being poorly designed.

The goal of an operating system is not to read PDFs. As several others have pointed out to you, you could have a plain text file (with the proper encoding) that could be read on a computer that is decades old and it will be readable on one that is made decades from now. You don't know that is true of PDF.

> it is equally unlikely for future computers to ever lose the ability to read a pdf

Well, we'll just have to wait and see. I wouldn't count on PDF files being easily readable in, say, 40 years (if humanity even exists at that point :D).

Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion, random person on the internet. I need to head out to a Covid test, wish me luck.

Used books stores can be pretty cheap.

It's interesting that the internet archive blog doesn't use a secure connection. Anyway, this has always been a concern of mine as well. I prefer to read digital, on my reader, but I do remove DRM for this very reason and I back my ebooks up 3 times: PC, Reader and Cloud. My absolute favorite books, those I consider 5-Stars, I usually re-purchase for my physical bookshelf unless the edition is really ugly (has happened).

Books are more secure too. Digital information is easily deleted or manipulated while books can be hidden and passed on.

We have physical texts that are thousands of years old, good luck doing that with digital data.

Or eBay, thrift stores, etc.

USPS has media mail rates meaning I can frequently find very specific books for like $5 total online if they are older.

Also for finding something random I love just taking the time to go through that hige wall of books at a thrift store to dig out something that looks interesting. $1 or $2 per book usually.

Plain text is not inferior in literally every way. It's superior in not needing additional tools to understand. Not no tools, but a bare minimum which cannot be said for pdf.

True that formatting and images and other niceties are not in txt. But when the core question is "how to preserve the text" (not "how to preserve this specific prettified version of it"), then txt is superior.

Personally, I currently would advocate for markdown. All the advantages of .txt as it appears on disk, and some basic formatting understandable by parsers without requiring such formatting to be understood

You mention that the OS isn't reading a text file (correct), but not that Linux isn't an OS as I inferred. Missed opportunity for further pedantry there. /s

Realistically, if we were archiving documents we'd do so in multiple formats. PDF or some other format would likely be the most used but plain text would be there for compatibility, or for those who are accessing files on more limited clients.

BL?

I wouldn’t be able to fit all the physical versions of my book collection in my apartment.

This doesn't make sense, just because your new client doesn't support epub1 or epub2 doesn't mean that the book is "worn down", it's there and as long as the data is safe, the book is safe.

For me, paper is for books I want to read again (and again) and digital is for books I am not sure, or are fluffy books that I will likely only read once. If a digital book is a surprise favorite, I'll buy a physical copy.

Not every book I read needs to be a forever book.

You clearly have no concept of embedded operating systems in general. Most can read txt trivially (often in the form of config files and the like) but have no need to understand pdf.

Fact is, PDF is orders of magnitude more complex than txt and needs similarly more complex specialised tools to understand it. That complexity is the problem that makes it inferior.

Wait, an epub file created ten years ago (with no DRM) is not readable now? That doesn't seem right....

If it's not readable, then the fact that it is still somehow archived is not as useful.

> It's interesting that the internet archive blog doesn't use a secure connection.

https://blog.archive.org/2022/11/15/digital-books-wear-out-faster-than-physical-books/

Smutty books with sexy covers. Or sexy books with smutty covers. Whichever you prefer

We can always read them though. Maybe not on your newest e-reader but you can still do it.

For now.

But once your old reader is broken and some book files aren’t updated to work on newer readers, then you’ll have a problem.

Example: I have the Sims 2 and many expansions as discs. I have been unable to play it for many years now. The last Windows version they worked on (for me) was Windows 7. I don’t have a working computer with Windows 7 anymore. The game isn’t available in an updated form for either download or disc. I cannot ever play it anymore, just because my computer is too ‘new’. For such games there isn’t an analogue alternative as with books.

You have ePub readers on Pc.

And there's probably a way to get Sims 2 working. If nothing else there's always a get Windows 7.

Maybe, but you will also always be able to read plain text. The scenario where plain text is unreadable is one where there are no computers at all.

> You have ePub readers on Pc.

Again: for now. Who knows if those will stay updated to keep working?

> And there’s probably a way to get Sims 2 working. If nothing else there’s always a get Windows 7.

Believe me, I have tried. There are some people got it working, but none of their solutions worked on my computer. And even if you get it to work, it doesn’t mean it works well. There’s a gamer on youtube who played the Sims 2 recently, but it was pretty buggy. (And he plays games for a living, so I’m certain he spend time on getting it to work as best he could.)

And no, I’m not buying an old/extra computer to have a Windows 7 system just for one game. And even if I did, that computer would die on me eventually too.

Anything digital (that is dependant on something else to work) sadly just isn’t as long lasting as something analogous. Digital has its advantages of course, but longevity isn’t one of them.

And it isn't like epub is a closed format. Worst case you have to use a program to format your files. DRM is a much bigger concern for me. Luckily here in Germany, the big book sellers (with the exception of Amazon) have mostly given up on hard DRM for ebooks on their websites. Only invisible watermarks.

The fact that the backup if it doesn't work is to convert to text kinda proves the point.

How do you remove the DRM and back them up? I have over 1000 books on my kindle and really need to do this but everything I find seems to be old. (DM is welcome if you don’t want to post here)

You should still be able to play it

Make a Virtual Machine, or look into how other people are playing older games on newer machines

Dual boot is also an option although considered unsafe due to security patches not being a thing

Get calibre and learn how to strip DRM. It will make things much, much easier. You don't have to rely on specific devices, only that your devices can read that specific file. Whether it's legal or not, I don't really care. If I've paid $15 for a digital book, I don't care if the fine print states that it is for "access," I'm going to make sure that book is mine.

I’m sorry, but not one of your paragraphs make any sense whatsoever.

Software as a construct doesn’t go through wear and tear. What you are talking about is software entropy, old software may not fit users’ expectations or configurations anymore (your example with Windows 7 and some old games fits here), or may not be maintained anymore.

What differs all this is from typical wear and tear is that in case of normal wear, changes occur in the object itself. Take a CD for example. No matter what you do, you can’t stop it from degrading given time. You can try and slow it down, but can’t stop it completely. That’s wear and tear. In case of software, this doesn’t occur. Changes in the environment cause software entropy, and even decades later, you can still use that software as long as you make the required changes to the environment.

> There’s a gamer on youtube who played the Sims 2 recently, but it was pretty buggy. (And he plays games for a living, so I’m certain he spend time on getting it to work as best he could.)

This is so trivial that they could do it in an afternoon if they had the required knowledge. Just fire up a VM with Windows XP or ME, you don’t need to do anything else.

> Anything digital (that is dependant on something else to work) sadly just isn’t as long lasting as something analogous. Digital has its advantages of course, but longevity isn’t one of them.

Wrong. This is just totally wrong. One of the primary reasons digital media was invented was the fragility of analog media. Analog media is a direct representation of information, you can’t faithfully make a copy of it without losing some of that information in the process or store it indefinitely. This attenuates over time and eventually you lose most if not all of the original information itself. Digital data abstracts information over it’s representation. You can make infinite identical copies of it, change the abstraction (difference between epub1, epub2 or epub3 for example), share it across the world and the information that lies under that digital media is still the same as the original one. This is the reason why libraries all around the world are digitizing their catalogs.

Its called WORM storage most common is probably DVD-R but some types of magnetic is longer lasting . There's also distributed self stabilization storage.

I think by plain text they meant .txt format, not paper books.

It was surprisingly easy once I tried doing it! The only caveat is that you do need to own a Kindle device, since Amazon won't give you a download link for your book files unless you have one (that's because the download is technically for transferring the files via cable to that Kindle device). I know you said you own one, but I just wanted to make that clear in case anyone who only reads Kindle books via the app is reading.

It's been a while since I did this, so I don't remember the exact details and locations for every menu etc. But I believe this info is enough for you to be able to google it.

Download Calibre, an ebook management software. Get the plugin called DeDRM (google how to add it). In the settings for DeDRM, add the serial number of your Kindle device (this is needed as a key for it to decrypt your books!).

Once you have done this, you can download the books and just drag and drop them into Calibre. Once you do, Calibre automagically removes the DRM and you are free to open them on your computer, transfer them to other ebook readers, and so on.

I believe you got a bit hung up on the article's phrasing of "wear out". Nobody in the world (hyperbole) thinks that software or electronic files "wear out" the way physical objects do. The person you replied to didn't say that either. It's just a comparison, maybe not a very good one. You can't accuse the other poster for making nonsensical arguments and then go on to attack something they didn't even say.

Anyway, yes, currently, there are ways to access older software and files. You might need to spend some extra time finding a workaround, but there will be one.

But what about in 50 years? In 100 years? ...300 years? When nobody who ever cared about those games or that software is still alive? The older these systems get, the more we need enthusiasts who are willing to spend their time to keep them alive somehow. Generally the people who do still engage with it are people who have a nostalgic connection to the time when it was produced.

There are of course also major drawbacks to analog media, and format obsolescence is also one of them for most formats outside of books. There are many physical formats, both analog and digital, that may well become completely inaccessible in our lifetime. When the last MiniDisc player dies, existing MiniDiscs will never again be played, for example. This is an adjacent but different problem to that of obsolete file formats/software. I mean, we'll have computers in the future too. But I think it's just way to early in the computing age to conclude that we will be able to access the currently existing files and software forever.

Exactly what I've been doing with my ebooks. I purchased them, so they are mine and automatically remove DRM when I add them to my Calibre library. The oldest books in my library have a date stamp of December 1990. And with Calibre I can convert to about 17 different formats. Long live Calibre and DeDRM.

Exactly!

Word! However, it's certainly a good point that technophobic people who get anxiety just considering a procedure outside of what the Big Corporations tells you to don't own their files and never will. The Big Corporations are betting on most people being like that, and sadly, I think it's a pretty safe bet.

I think the user I replied to used wear out in the sense I’ve interpreted it in my response, they talked about epub readers not being updated and therefore not working with epub files anymore, which doesn’t make sense at all if they didn’t imply them wearing out with not being updated. A better term may be deprecation. Software (or digital data) doesn’t deprecate in the sense that it loses functionality, that’s what I meant and that is what the user above was implying with their comment about epub reader, sims 2 game etc. I stand by what I’ve written.

Anyway, let me answer your question with another question:

Do you think print media lasts 50, 100 or 300 years on its own without maintenance? If your answer is no, then you can do 0.1% of that maintenance for your digital books by keeping backups of it / software that can play it and maybe the operating system. Heck, even keeping an old computer in storage for archival purposes works too.

I understand your mini disc example and you’re right, but that’s a different problem. You are talking the physical medium specifically, not the digital abstraction of it. The only argument against digital data I see is a catastrophic event where humanity is regressed to a point where utilizing computers is impossible.

An epub file is just a zip file with plain text chapters + images + table of contents inside laid down in a structured (read: standardized) manner. You can literally extract an epub file to a folder with a zip tool (like WinRAR if you use windows) and use notepad to read the book if you want.

And, even if it weren’t a fancy zip-based file format, but a binary format, the specification is out there and open freely.

Okay, they didn't use the expression "wear out" about files, but I catch your drift.

I never said that books last that long with or without maintenance. I certainly don't think they do! Preserving media for hundreds of years is very difficult no matter the format. I merely commented that access to older digital material may well prove difficult far into the future. I will admit that I was straying away from the original topic, which was a direct comparison between paper books and ebooks. I feel like the debate on whether we can play a Windows 7 game in 2022 kind of loses its point when we are talking about preserving things even further into the future, especially longer than the lifetime of the people who had fond memories of that piece of media. Yes, this was the example the other user made, and I agree with you that their difficulties can be overcome. But I think they have a point still. It's already not fully straightforward (as in install game, click & play), and it's only been 18 years. Games are a part of our cultural history and could prove very interesting to future historians and other social scientists. Will they be able to access them in hundreds of years? That's the real issue imo.

I have my doubts about us being able to preserve functional older computers for hundreds of years, but I would be happy to know that I'm wrong, as I get kind of stressed out at thinking of all the wonderful (in its way) old technology that will be forever lost.

> I understand your mini disc example and you’re right, but that’s a different problem.

Yes, that's why I called it an adjacent problem. My point was that physical media isn't necessarily better regarding future inaccessibility due to format obsolescence. Just a comment for those who love everything physical I guess :)

Any steps more complicated than plain text make it harder to access the text. Have extra steps if you want, but always have plain text available.

That is the key. I have lost access to some adobe DRM files but they were easy to get in another format.

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I never said ‘wear and tear’, so I don’t see how your argument about that is relevant.

I just said that if something is digital doesn’t mean it’ll last forever. Epub files, games, etc. all require other software to be used. When that necessary software gets deprecated, such digital things are effectively lost. Sometimes people figure out ways around that (e.g. emulators), but that won’t always be the case (especially with lesser known stuff).

A physical book may degrade over time, but as long as you keep it safe, we’re talking about many many lifetimes, rather than the years until the newest update will fuck something up.

>When that necessary software gets deprecated, such digital things are effectively lost

No, this was the whole point of my comment. It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t get updates or isn’t supported anymore. The software will keep working forever if you provide it with the same environment.

No one is holding you at a gunpoint to update your software, you can also always install old versions if it comes to that. The digital book itself is fine as long as you keep it safe.

Also, try reading more than one sentence into the comment before responding. I’ve written the exact same thing in the previous comment, but I presume you stopped reading after deeming it ‘not relevant’.

Curious. You are advocating for text but use BOLD for emphases. Do you remember that plain text has no bold? Nor italics, or chapter headings, plain text doesn't have much in the way of formatting.

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You’re not reading my comments correctly.

> The software will keep working forever if you provide it with the same environment.

Theoretically, yes, obviously. The problem is that it not always easy or possible. If all gameboys are broken and no one with the skill takes the effort to create an emulator, it doesn’t matter that the game is still there. That’s why I said effectively lost.

> No one is holding you at a gunpoint to update your software, you can also always install old versions if it comes to that.

Again: theoretically yes. But effectively no.

I hardly find it a proper argument to claim that you can just not update. Like with an iPad, if you don’t update for too long certain apps will stop working because they force you to have a minimum ios version. And you can’t just install an older version of everything.