Submitted by Marciu73 t3_z3m019 in Futurology
Comments
[deleted] t1_ixnw9j7 wrote
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TalkativeVoyeur t1_ixq1g5n wrote
Yeah, but solar panels and launches are getting cheap enough that it's not that much of an issue anymore. The big question now it's on the transmission and how well that works out. I really want to see this happening, it could be revolutionary
Viper_63 t1_ixul7ib wrote
>that it's not that much of an issue anymore.
It actually still is a big issue though. And solar panels getting cheaper favors decentralised installation on the ground, if anything.
Unless you want to sent a literal death ray in to orbit you still need about as much space on the ground for the receiving array as you would with regular solar installations - only with all the added downsides of doing things "in space":
https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2012/03/space-based-solar-power/
>A space-based solar power system might sound very cool and futuristic, and it may seem at first blush an obvious answer to intermittency, but this comes at a big cost. Among the possibly unanticipated challenges:
>* The gain over the a good location on the ground is only a factor of 3 (2.4× in summer, 4.2× in winter at 35° latitude).
- It’s almost as hard to get energy back to the ground as it is to get the equipment into space in the first place.
- The microwave link faces problems with transmission through the atmosphere, and also flirts with roasting ducks on the wing.
- Diffraction of the downlink beam, together with energy density limits, means that very large areas of the ground still need to be dedicated to energy collection.
>Traditional solar photovoltaics in good locations can accomplish much the same for much reduced cost, and with only a few times more land than the microwave link approach would demand. The installations will be serviceable and will last longer. Batteries seem an easier way to cover storage shortcomings than launching stuff to space. I did not even address solar thermal schemes in this post, which competes well with photovoltaics and can very naturally build in storage capability.
>I am left puzzled as to why we would want to take a harder, more expensive road to solar power. I think it is just not intuitive to most how difficult and expensive space is. And perhaps they think it’s very futuristic and cool to push our power generation out to space: it fits the preferred narrative about where we’re going. I don’t know—I’m just guessing.
>Astronomers frequently face this issue: should we build a telescope/observatory on the ground, or launch something into space? The prevailing wisdom is that if the science can be accomplished on the ground, then by golly you’d best do it that way. You’ll have the result sooner, at less expense, and with a greater chance of success.
I am not certain this would even have realistic use cases for military applications, outside of actual space-based weapon systems (the afromentioned death ray).
The math simply doesn't add up, even if you assume unrealistic optimal conditions. Looking at the involved companies it's quite clear that these are bascially hand-outs to the industry.
TalkativeVoyeur t1_ixuygy2 wrote
Yeah, im not sure it makes that much sense anymo. What I meant is that is a lot more technically feasible, even if impractical. I guess it's gonna be tested and then never used again. Btw, very good writeup!
DynamicResonater t1_ixwiz6m wrote
- A spaced based system could supply uninterrupted power with greater generation efficiency and could be built out much larger than its terrestrial counterpart.
- Several plants in orbit could be networked for power sharing optimization while using the same transmission infrastructure.
- Another facet is that a single power plant with orbital adjustments could be used across/between continents thus eliminating much terrestrial distribution infrastructure.
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Viper_63 t1_ixwvxre wrote
None of these address the inherent problems the technology has and which the aricle brings up, and it also directly contradicts the claim that you "could built them out much larger". You still need receiving arrays on the ground which have to be of comparable size to the solar parks you're aiming to replace.
Arguing generation efficiency is pointless, as the ratio is pretty much fixed and improving efficiency further will impact both space and terrestial arrays. The point is transmission and conversion efficiency, which is where the technology fails, because of the massive losses.
"Networking plants in orbit" will only exacerbate transmission losses and does not change the inherent limitations placed upon receiving arrays.
I don't even know what the last point is supposed to mean. Are you under the impression that we currently share power the same way we "share" internet connections? That Africa's powergrid is connected to the Americas'?
You can not feasibly eliminate any existing infrastructure with this. Ground based grids will always be more efficient than "beaming" anything. Geostationary orbit is 35000 km up.
Putting things "in space" doesn't magically solve problems, regardless of how cool it sounds. In this case it has more downsides and creates more problems than it actually "solves", not to mention making critical infrastructure exemely hard to maintain or replace. If anything it might make more sense to simply reflect sunlight. That way you at least don't end up with a completly useless groundstation if something on your space array breaks down.
Marciu73 OP t1_ixm9r3b wrote
It’s a small step, but it could start an incredible journey.
Today, the ministerial council of the European Space Agency (ESA) said it would proceed with a feasibility study into space-based solar power (SBSP) generation.
The decision, thrashed out among ESA member-country ministers over 22-23 November in Paris, means SBSP is now formally on the ESA’s strategic agenda.
The idea is eventually to launch big solar-farm satellites into orbit around Earth so they can harvest the Sun’s energy outside Earth’s atmosphere, where it’s more intense, and beam it wirelessly to receivers on Earth.
l0gicowl t1_ixmxne7 wrote
It's very cool and has such a sci-fi vibe to it. Pretty much limitless energy, able to be sent down anywhere on Earth's surface.
It'll take time for the tech to become viable of course, but as costs for getting material into space continue to become cheaper and cheaper over time, I see no reason that this couldn't become real one day.
Viper_63 t1_ixuojg9 wrote
>It'll take time for the tech to become viable of course, but as costs for getting material into space continue to become cheaper and cheaper over time, I see no reason that this couldn't become real one day.
Plenty of reasons, basic physics for one. Nor will launch costs continue to drop to a level to make this viable, at least not with chemical rocket technology alone (and no, "spin launch" isn't what I am referring to).
>It's very cool and has such a sci-fi vibe to it.
Which the only reason this crops up again every few decades. This is not about "the tech becoming viable". Unless you want to sent a literal death ray into orbit the math simply doesn't add up (on the other, the math does add up for the involved companies as far as money is concerned).
stinkypinkydinky t1_ixop0i9 wrote
When the Chinese talk about doing it, it's "controversial" and we must be careful of all the risks and the possibility of it being weaponized. When it's Europe talking about it, none of the risks or possibility of weaponizing are mentioned.
DeezNeezuts t1_ixow8o4 wrote
Last I looked the EU wasn’t letting rockets fall randomly back to earth hoping they hit water.
stinkypinkydinky t1_ixoy7bu wrote
The Chinese deliberately don't disclose where their rockets will fall. Which is shitty because of a whole host of repercussions such as forcing the cancelling of flights and causing anxiety among people, but that's the basis for Western narratives that Chinese spacecraft have uncontrolled descents. Fragments have fallen in population centers but European and American spacecraft have also had errant fragments falling close to population centers. China should absolutely communicate with NASA and other space agencies about their intentions, but I imagine they don't because they rightly or wrongly believe someone will try to beat them to the site of the wreckage if they know ahead of time where it will be.
Unless you legitimately believe China is going to allow its rockets to fall into American territory and allow Americans to just scoop them up. Space technology is a matter of national security, and no country is going to allow another country to have easy access to its technology if they can help it.
The_Demolition_Man t1_ixmzr3c wrote
Doesnt make sense. You cant get around atmospheric losses either way. You're just adding an extra step when converting from your beam back to electricity again, which will increase losses to heat
corgi-king t1_ixnr6la wrote
40 years ago when I was a kid, people already talking about this, along with space elevator, colony on Mars, flying cars, domestic robot,etc. None of these happened yet. I am sure these ideas had been around for much longer. And for the near future, this will still hold true.
allanrob22 t1_ixw1rtk wrote
It's because just like all those other things, domestic robots, flying cars and Mars colony. It's either overpriced, impractical, or both.
OkAdvice2329 t1_ixob3n1 wrote
Didn’t the Chinese just announce that they were doing this too?
FuturologyBot t1_ixmekos wrote
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Marciu73:
It’s a small step, but it could start an incredible journey.
Today, the ministerial council of the European Space Agency (ESA) said it would proceed with a feasibility study into space-based solar power (SBSP) generation.
The decision, thrashed out among ESA member-country ministers over 22-23 November in Paris, means SBSP is now formally on the ESA’s strategic agenda.
The idea is eventually to launch big solar-farm satellites into orbit around Earth so they can harvest the Sun’s energy outside Earth’s atmosphere, where it’s more intense, and beam it wirelessly to receivers on Earth.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/z3m019/european_space_agency_to_probe_solar_power_from/ixm9r3b/
[deleted] t1_ixmhdpv wrote
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[deleted] t1_ixn088g wrote
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OliverSparrow t1_ixyhkje wrote
Well, not with a silly little thing as in the illustration. You want a 20 km radius slowly rotating dick disk - Edit: Freud, you should be living at this hour - with components either space fabbed from Lunar raw materials or assembled as modules on the Moon. Gives a reason for Moon activities, as opposed to disk waving (got it right this time).
BGDDisco t1_ixn2wqm wrote
Won't this generate a lot of heat in the atmosphere? More global warming, just what we need.
[deleted] t1_ixwah14 wrote
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[deleted] t1_ixn82gh wrote
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RandomBitFry t1_ixmbhik wrote
I'm sure this was discussed decades ago and dismissed because the losses from 'beaming' power to earth outweighed the benefits.