Girafferage t1_is0phak wrote
Reply to comment by Iamjustpassingtime in South Korean researchers say they have developed an anode-free lithium-ion battery that is 40% more energy dense than existing batteries and will enable EVs to travel 630km (390 miles) on a single charge. by lughnasadh
And still lithium based, which doesn't have great projections for availability and cost in the future.
twoinvenice t1_is0vkbi wrote
Lithium isn’t all that rare
Drachefly t1_is21ftz wrote
If the price of Lithium goes up by a factor of 1.5 another big mine in another country becomes profitable to run. If it goes up by a factor of 3 it becomes economical to extract it from seawater.
There is a limit to how bad this price can get, in the medium-long term. You can have price spikes. If those are projected to continue, production will increase and the price will come down.
OldFashnd t1_is0v4pb wrote
Plus the ethical issues with sourcing materials gathered via child labor
BGaf t1_is0vefe wrote
Where is lithium mined by children?
OldFashnd t1_is0ww2e wrote
Lithium isn’t as far as I know (however it does have a lot of environmental implications), but Cobalt is. There is a shit ton of Cobalt in most li ion batteries. Something like 50% of cobalt used worldwide is used in batteries, and most of it is mined in the Democratic republic of Congo where child labor is used in the mines. Children breathing in toxic cobalt dust all day.
Surur t1_is1189g wrote
And 50% of Lithium batteries do not use cobalt.
All petrol refining does.
BGaf t1_is15jc4 wrote
Not all lithium battery chemistries require cobalt.
OldFashnd t1_is1h5uj wrote
While true, at this moment in time most used in EV’s do. I’m not sure why I’m getting downvoted, I didn’t say that it was worse than the fossil fuel industry. All I’m saying is that it’s a problem that needs to be addressed, nomatter what industry is using it.
BGaf t1_is1mjtn wrote
Do you have a link I can read about the majority of electric cars are using cobalt chemistries? So far all I can find is 80% of Chinese ev batteries are LFP.
OldFashnd t1_is1u7bh wrote
https://thenextweb.com/news/the-cobalt-free-electric-vehicle-batteries-are-here
> The EV sector uses a combination of lithium-ion battery chemistries, with cobalt-containing cathodes maintaining the largest share. This is due to their energy density and performance –cobalt is particularly important for stability and safety.
I will mention that i mistyped in my previous comment, i meant to say long range EV’s. I believe a number of manufacturers are moving to cobalt free batteries for their standard range models, but most of the long range models require the higher capacity cobalt batteries at this point.
SatanLifeProTips t1_is1bqos wrote
Specifically, LFP lithium doesn’t use any. It’s becoming common in standard range cars at 80% of the energy storage of NMC lithium. It also has a longer lifespan (cycle rating).
OldFashnd t1_is1gv9f wrote
I didn’t say anything about the petrol industry. The fact that the current industry uses it doesn’t mean it’s not a problem that needs to be solved.
Surur t1_is1gzj9 wrote
It's solved already.
OldFashnd t1_is1i006 wrote
It obviously isn’t though. While non-cobalt batteries are becoming increasingly common for standard range EV batteries, almost all long range versions still use cobalt sourced from the DRC.
Surur t1_is1lfxl wrote
Just because the solution has not rolled out to everybody does not mean it's not a solved issue.
Why do you want to deprive the Congolese of profiting off their mineral wealth?
OldFashnd t1_is1nbjc wrote
> just because the solution has not rolled out to everybody does not mean it’s not a solved issue.
That’s not how solutions work. If i get stabbed in the leg but don’t have a tourniquet, my problem has not been solved because a tourniquet exists at a hospital two hours away. If we can manufacture cobalt free batteries but we aren’t doing it for one reason or another, then the problem isn’t solved.
> why do you want to deprive the Congolese of profiting off their mineral wealth?
What an utterly stupid thing to say. I don’t have a problem with the Congolese profiting off of their cobalt, I have a problem with the Congolese having children do the work. Cobalt is extremely toxic and can cause lasting damage, and these kids breathe it in all day long. That’s not a problem to you?
Surur t1_is1pfot wrote
You said:
> I don’t have a problem with the Congolese profiting off of their cobalt
yet you complained about.
> almost all long range versions still use cobalt sourced from the DRC.
You just said you wanted no cobalt from the Congo in any batteries. Cant you reason from step 1 to step 2?
Next you will be complaining about Lithium from Chile.
OldFashnd t1_is1tdjg wrote
Yeah, no problem. It’s pretty elementary, but I’ll do it for you.
>Almost all long range versions still use cobalt sourced from the DRC
The DRC currently uses child labor to mine their cobalt, so sourcing cobalt from the DRC means cobalt produced by child labor.
> I don’t have a problem with the Congolese profiting off of their cobalt
I don’t, if the Congolese stop using child labor to produce their cobalt. However, we can’t decide what the DRC does with their people and their mining practices, so the only way not to source child labor produced cobalt is to stop using it. If the Congolese decide to stop using child labor, then it’s fine. That’s really not a hard concept.
Surur t1_is1ynur wrote
Some artisanal Congolese mines use child labour. There is certification processes in place, and NMC batteries are a smaller and smaller proportion of batteries.
Maybe the whole issue is a bit more complex than you want to paint it as, and maybe you need to butt out of the issue of poorer countries trying to survive.
OldFashnd t1_is20b1k wrote
Let’s see a source for the certification process, I can’t find anything about it.
You say “some”, but of the 255,000 Congolese working in the mines, 40,000 are children. That’s a lot more than “some”.
There are companies working with the Congolese to educate and make the process more sustainable, and that’s great. But in the meantime, I’m not cool with 40,000 kids having lifelong damage done to them because of cobalt toxicity.
Surur t1_is22nlp wrote
> Let’s see a source for the certification process, I can’t find anything about it.
You obviously did not look very hard.
https://www.faircobaltalliance.org/resources/frequently-asked-questions/
> But in the meantime, I’m not cool with 40,000 kids having lifelong damage done to them because of cobalt toxicity.
Better stop typing on your laptop then and hang up your phone.
And make sure you set up a standing donation to FoodAid, since Congolese need to eat too.
OldFashnd t1_is2e7hw wrote
I did look, but thanks for the source.
> The FCA will work towards a child-labour free operations by supporting ASM operators in establishing effective control and monitoring mechanisms to keep children out of the mines. But more so, we recognise that this is not the full solution; we need to look at it from a child rights perspective, not only ensuring there is no child labour in the mining sites but addressing the root causes and making sure children do not end up in other labour or exploitative situations, i.e. just moving the problem. We are therefore also investing in off-site, community programmes including efforts to prevent and remediate child labour.
Happy to hear this. Glad it’s being worked on.
Unfortunately I can’t help but have a phone and laptop to put food on the table for my kid. Although I do keep my devices as long as possible to avoid the waste and overall impact. I do understand that many families in the DRC cannot afford to stop what they’re doing. My initial approach was incorrect. I get that they need to work to survive, just like i do. I’m not blaming the Congolese and I’m not blaming the consumer that’s buying the products.
> Our first year in operation, taking into account the travel restrictions and challenges presented to us by COVID 19, has been focused on mobilising membership, fundraising and planning.
>We’ve developed a step by step improvement plan with the mine site operators to improve conditions over 3-4 years time; ultimately with the aim of achieving best practices certification.
The FCA hasn’t actually done anything yet, unfortunately. I would love to see the companies buying the cobalt to have invested directly into new infrastructure. They could hire the artisanal miners as contractors or remote employees and pay them well enough that the kids don’t have to work, and supply these mines with the resources needed to make the mining safer and more efficient. Hell, the Congolese only make like $3.50/day. That’s pennies for a company like tesla. They could pay parents that extra amount per day to cover what the kids bring in and invest in infrastructure, and come out with safe practices without changing their bottom line hardly at all. At 3.50/day and 40,000 kids, that’s ~50 mill a year. Pay that extra to the adults, invest another 100 mill in PPE and infrastructure to maintain previous levels of production. Tesla sold 1,000,000 cars in 2021, that cost spread out would be a total of 150$ difference per tesla. Thats nothing on a 40,000$ car, and that’s assuming tesla would be the only company doing it. Of course, they’d have to deal with the established mining companies to do that, but I don’t know why those mining companies wouldn’t be cooperative if it doesn’t affect their profit. They’d end up coming out of the deal with a more efficient and sustainable business, so it only makes sense.
Surur t1_is2hie6 wrote
This is about EVs.
More than half of EVs do not use cobalt.
DRC only supplies 50% of the cobalt in the world, so potentially 25% of EVs have DRC cobalt
90% of DRC cobalt are from big, non-artisinal mines without potential child labour, meaning only 2.5% of EVs have artisanal cobalt in it with potential child labour.
And you believe this is a major issue with EVs.
OldFashnd t1_is2oixw wrote
How is that related to what I just said? Any company using cobalt should be doing it, not just EV companies. I don’t care what percent of stuff has it in there, i care about the 40,000 kids that will have long term health problems because of cobalt. Any company using the cobalt should be doing work to end it, just like clothing companies should be doing the same for the labor they use offshore.
Surur t1_is2r1r1 wrote
The obligation to the citizens come from their government, but in any case, this may be educational:
Tesla’s engagement in the DRC and the Fair Cobalt Alliance (FCA)
The DRC is an important source of cobalt for Tesla batteries. We will continue supporting sourcing from the DRC provided our responsible sourcing standards are met. While Tesla does not source cobalt from Artisanal and Small-Scale Mining (ASM), we recognize the importance of ASM for local livelihoods. This is why Tesla provides funding to, and sits on, the Steering Committee of the Fair Cobalt Alliance (FCA), a multi-stakeholder initiative to support the improvement of conditions in communities impacted by artisanal mining through the following activities:
• Occupational health and safety awareness raising campaign for mine workers
• First aid training for mine workers and selection of safety captains
• Distribution of protective equipment to washer women
• Creation of savings groups for mining community members paired with financial literacy training
• Development of referral system for children engaged in mining activities, including child labor notification protocol, remediation solution packages, and guidelines for case managers on remediation steps, in collaboration with the NGO, Save the Children
• Trainings related to child rights
• Electrification of five schools covering students through the distribution of solar-chargeable portable lamps
• A marketplace and football field selected for the placement of lighting poles
https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2021-tesla-impact-report.pdf
OldFashnd t1_is3212x wrote
I believe that moral obligation to help people that you’re benefitting from is existential, not based on government lines. People are people.
And again, that’s all fine and dandy, but the FCA hasn’t actually done anything yet.
Beyond that, it isn’t only artisanal mining that’s a problem
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/glencore-congo-cobalt-mining-lawsuit/45446800
Surur t1_is38pis wrote
That whole case sounded incredible shaky and this outcome is no surprise.
As to the impact of the FCA
https://www.faircobaltalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Q2-2022-Progress-Update_EN-1.jpg
But that is all by the by really. I don't see you talking about how the people who make rubber for the wheels are being looked after. The whole narrative is in bad faith.
OldFashnd t1_is39yxq wrote
Who won the lawsuit is irrelevant, the lawsuit was against the American tech companies using the cobalt. The point of my posting it was to show that child labor is not only used in the artisanal mines. From the article:
> The researchers on the case estimate that thousands of children mining cobalt – including in concessions owned by Glencore – are forced to work under hazardous conditions at risk of losing life and limb and at the expense of education.
> Some of the child miners, the class action lawsuits notes, are as young as six and have been trafficked to work on the mines. Ten of the plaintiffs in the case were severely wounded or maimed. “John Doe 3” lost his leg at a mine operated by a subsidiary of a Chinese mining company.
You don’t see me talking about rubber wheels because the topic of the thread is lithium batteries.
Surur t1_is4if1o wrote
The law suite was not won, it was dismissed, it was so ludicrous. Despite this, for some reason, you still believe their erroneous claims.
> You don’t see me talking about rubber wheels because the topic of the thread is lithium batteries.
You are talking about Cobalt child labour because you are attacking EVs. You do not really care about worker welfare.
OldFashnd t1_is5fzqz wrote
The lawsuit was dismissed because it’s obvious that the American tech companies cannot be sued for the work environment of a company in another country.
> you are talking about cobalt child labour because you are attacking EV’s. You do not really care about worker welfare.
Well that’s just patently false. I don’t have a problem with EV’s, never did. I’d buy a ford lighting if I could afford one and I wasn’t concerned about the child labor issues. I’m 100% aware of the positive impact EV’s will have in the future. My only issue is child labor, as I’ve said for this entire thread.
Edit: typo
Surur t1_is5lwff wrote
> American tech companies cannot be sued for the work environment of a company in another country.
Also called an attempted cash grab.
> My only issue is child labor, as I’ve said for this entire thread.
If that is true (which I seriously doubt), now you know it's a non-issue affecting a vanishingly small amount of batteries used by EVs. Hopefully, now you know you will never mention it again.
OldFashnd t1_is5miby wrote
God, you’re insufferable. It’s still a problem until there aren’t kids working in mines. I don’t care if it’s 2.5% of EV’s man, it’s 40,000 kids.
Surur t1_is5n6j5 wrote
This is neither the time and place to campaign against child labour, which affects much more than cobalt mining. You seem to be campaigning against EVs instead, which is why I said you are arguing in bad faith.
If you are campaigning against child labour, you can use your time more effectively elsewhere.
While you are fake crying about 40,000 children, about 4.7 million children aged 5–14 work in Congo.
E.g. in the Congo children are employed in the following areas:
Sector/Industry
- Agriculture: Farming, including in the production of manioc, peanuts, corn, plantains, potatoes, and sugarcane
- Fishing
- Industry: Working in stone quarries,† including breaking stones
- Services
- Domestic work
- Market vending and carrying heavy loads
- Categorical Worst Forms of Child Labor‡: Commercial sexual exploitation, sometimes as a result of human trafficking
- Forced labor in farming, including in the production of cocoa, fishing, domestic work, and working in stone quarries
- Forced labor in market vending and working in bakeries
- Forced labor of indigenous Baka, Aka, and Kola children in farming, including in the production of manioc, and in fishing, hunting, and domestic work
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/resources/reports/child-labor/congo-republic
Rwanda is even worse
> ILO estimates Rwanda has 400,000 child workers. Of these, 120,000 are thought to be involved in the worst forms of child labour and 60,000 are child domestic workers.
OldFashnd t1_is5p1nz wrote
You don’t get to decide when the time and place is to campaign against anything.
It may seem like I’m campaigning against EV’s to you, but that’s not what’s happening. I don’t have a problem with EV’s, never did, never said that I did.
I’ll happily fight for those kids too. I can’t know all of the ins and outs of every child labor force in the world, I’m just one person with a life and family of my own to take care of. Just because there are other places using child labor doesn’t mean this one isn’t an issue or is somehow acceptable. What you’re saying is like saying “why doesn’t the fca work towards ending child labor in other industries?” Because their mission is the cobalt mines. What did you expect me to do, post listing every child labor force in the DRC and explain steps to fix it? You keep trying to minimize it as if it isn’t a problem at all, and somehow the fact that their are other problems in the world makes this one acceptable.
Surur t1_is5vsb7 wrote
> You keep trying to minimize it as if it isn’t a problem at all
It's an incredibly minor problem for the topic, which is Li batteries. That is my whole point. It has already been addressed, and will become even smaller in the future.
LovingLibiral1776 t1_is2aps1 wrote
Lmao you’re honestly defending child labor? This website has the most delusional people… I’ve never met anyone like you in person, I assume you are confined to your mothers basement? Hopefully she’s got a nice strong lock on the basement door, wouldn’t want a maniac like you out in society.
Surur t1_is2cdj1 wrote
You are the ones who want the Congolese to starve.
Literally taking food out of the mouths of babies.
Feel ashamed man.
LovingLibiral1776 t1_is381am wrote
Nice stamens argument. The Congolese don’t have to starve, and they don’t have to utilize child labor to keep their economy going. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. Try harder troll.
Surur t1_is4i87t wrote
> The Congolese don’t have to starve, and they don’t have to utilize child labor to keep their economy going
The DRC is so rich right lol.
> The Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) ranks in as the poorest country in the world based on its GDP per capita over the 2009-2013 period. With DRC citizens earning on average $394.25 a year
So $33 per month.
> The Anker Living Income Reference Value for 2021 for rural Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) is CDF 380,033 per month (USD 193)2 with a 95% confidence interval around it from CDF 325,801 to CDF 443,291.
So average salary $33. Living income $192.
> The Congolese don’t have to starve, and they don’t have to utilize child labor to keep their economy going
We should obviously boycott DRC Cobalt. That will definitely make them richer. I am so glad you solved poverty. #3rdWorldProblems.
pinkfootthegoose t1_is14qpf wrote
then throw out your phone and all your clothing.
ReneHigitta t1_is20lbp wrote
Nirvana fallacy
OldFashnd t1_is1ho6b wrote
If it was feasible to keep make a living in the US without a phone or survive without clothes, I would. As it stands I wear clothes for as long as possible and only replace my phone when it stops being functional.
I never said that this was a problem exclusive to EV’s or that we shouldn’t be moving in that direction, that doesn’t mean it’s not a problem that needs to be addressed.
pinkfootthegoose t1_is1itpe wrote
you sound like a concern troll
OldFashnd t1_is1l957 wrote
How is saying that children shouldn’t be working in fucking mines trolling? I don’t care what industry the mining is done for, it’s an issue. Cobalt is incredibly toxic and they’re breathing it day in and day out. Something like 40,000 kids. Move to cobalt free batteries for all batteries and it’s fine.
MilkshakeBoy78 t1_is2ae41 wrote
it's impossible for everything to be ethically produced. i think people are just tired of hearing of the bad news over and over again.
OldFashnd t1_is2ewt0 wrote
I really don’t think that it is, but the companies that are involved in that supply chain would have to put in the work to make it happen. Invest in infrastructure and PPE for the people and pay them enough that they don’t have to have kids working in dangerous positions. But corporations don’t want to do that because it affects their bottom dollar at the end of the day. We can’t be mad at the people doing the job to survive or the consumer that needs the product (i.e, a phone and computer are necessary in the west to get/hold a job most of the time), but the corporations that are profiting off if the unethical practices should be the ones to make the difference. They just won’t, unfortunately.
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