Submitted by Draconic_Flame t3_11rfyk2 in Futurology
bound4mexico t1_jce0mez wrote
Reply to comment by Shadowkiller00 in What are some jobs that AI cannot take? by Draconic_Flame
>I'm expressing a desire to have aliens come judge us as a species. That's it. That's all I'm saying.
Ok. What you actually said was
>human ethics should be monitored by an uninterested third party.
and they are, all the time.
>I can't be wrong about it because it's a wish and a silly one at that.
Indeed. What I've clashed with you over is not that wish, but all the other things you've said.
>I literally don't have to read a single other word you said because everything you are saying is irrelevant.
lol, nice try. You're mimicking me, but there's no meaning in what you're saying. What I wrote is relevant. The wish is irrelevant. The idea that a single person be hired to judge ethics is irrelevant, yet you repeatedly fixated on it. The idea that all of humanity ought be judged on all their ethics at once is irrelevant, yet you repeatedly fixated on it. The idea that humans ought to be more ethical by outsourcing decisions to disinterested third parties is relevant. We're discussing it. You brought it up (you said nothing about aliens in the OP).
You don't have to read a single word I write because you're free, but the words I write are relevant, whether you read them or not.
Shadowkiller00 t1_jce3t74 wrote
Since you get to decide what I'm saying, how about I decide what you said.
>Let an uninterested (human) third party select the ethical thing, and then (all first) parties are pre-bound to abide its decision.
See you said "AN uninterested (human)". This implies one person. I only fixated on the words you said.
>I'm expressing a desire to have aliens come judge us as a species. That's it. That's all I'm saying.
>Ok. What you actually said was
>Human ethics should be monitored by an uninterested third party.
It's weird. It's almost like the first time I said it, you didn't comprehend what I said so I followed it up by clarifying. You parroting my words back to me and clarifying that you don't comprehend that the second part is a clarification only proves that you have no idea what I am talking about.
Nothing you say is relevant because we are having two completely different conversations. I'm having one where I explain to you what I mean, and you are having one where you are off in the field preaching on a soap box about a related but otherwise irrelevant subject. The fact that you want your words to be important doesn't make them relevant to the fact that I want aliens to judge humans.
bound4mexico t1_jce7qze wrote
> Since you get to decide what I'm saying
I don't. I quoted you directly.
>you said "AN uninterested (human)".
No. I said "an uninterested (human) party. And (human) parties can be one or more people. It in NO WAY "implies one person".
>I'm having one where I explain to you what I mean
You're having one where you change the meaning of what you say, NOT explaining what you mean. There are no aliens in the OP, that's a change in meaning, NOT a clarification of meaning.
>I want aliens to judge humans.
Yes. You've already said this (but didn't say this in your OP).
Most aliens that would judge humans aren't disinterested third parties, though. And what you said was
>Human ethics should be monitored by an uninterested third party.
Which they already often are, and ought to be even moreso.
The third party can be a single person, but it's often multiple people. Juries, the supreme court, district courts, panels, subcommittees, etc.
Shadowkiller00 t1_jcemk69 wrote
>No. I said "an uninterested (human) party. And (human) parties can be one or more people. It in NO WAY "implies one person".
So wait, what you said CAN mean one person? What? No way! So the way I read it is completely legit? Why are you correcting me? Is it because I'm not reading what you mean?
It's almost like the person who reads what is written can interpret a sentence differently than the person who wrote the sentence intended. Then the person who wrote it can choose to clarify that sentence later, and the person who read it can't really argue because it's the person who wrote the sentence that knows what they were trying to say regardless of how successful they were in saying it in the first place.
Can I make this any clearer?
Okay I'll try to explain this like I am talking to a child. I'm trying to show you an example of me doing to you what you are doing to me. When I originally read your comment, my brain automatically interpreted it as a single person because it is a legitimate way to read the sentence. It was only upon you being confused as to why I kept bringing it up that I finally went back and reread what you wrote and realized that I made a mistake in my interpretation of what you said. It doesn't technically matter because I was only saying one person because I thought you had said one person and I easily could rewrite everything I said previous to now in reference to a group and it would still be just the same.
Now I'm using this as an example to try to get you to reflect upon the fact that a reader can make a mistake with understanding what the writer meant. I'm not trying to say that all writers are perfect, perhaps I could have written my original statement better just like you could have used slightly different wording or punctuation in an attempt to avoid what turned out to be my mistake. But I spent a mere 2 seconds crafting my poor wording while never for a second believing that a single person would care for a moment what I wrote, much less have a long form argument with me about what I meant. Even our initial repartee was mostly me being confused about why there was a problem alongside the fact that we disagree on some basic tenets of ethics. Once I realized why there was a problem in interpretation, I have stalwartly focused on trying to clarify so that you may go back and reread my original statement in the way I intended.
You disagree with me on certain foundational concepts of ethics and the definition of disinterested. That's fine. You said it yourself that ethics are subjective, and I agreed on that, which means that neither of us can be objectively right or wrong. All of that disagreement was just a sidetrack because I never wanted to end up in that conversation in the first place. I only wanted to be a bit silly, have a soft chuckle to myself, and move on with my life. I've got nothing else left to say, and if you still don't get it, it isn't because I didn't try.
I'm incapable of letting anyone else have the last word. It's a failing I have. So if you'd like to be the better person, just quietly move on. If you are also incapable, then either block me or say whatever it is you think you haven't already said and I'll block you. I hate getting to that point in a conversation, but you have shown no signs of wanting to end this peacefully.
bound4mexico t1_jcg0drw wrote
> So wait, what you said CAN mean one person? What? No way! So the way I read it is completely legit? Why are you correcting me? Is it because I'm not reading what you mean?
Party CAN mean one person, or multiple people. You are wrong to fixate on it as ONLY meaning one person. Human is an adjective in my sentence. There is NO valid (English) interpretation of my statement as referring to a human as a noun, which WOULD imply singularity. The way you "read" it (took it out of context) is completely illegit. You removed the noun "party" intentionally, and pretended that (human) was the noun, not an adjective.
>It's almost like the person who reads what is written can interpret a sentence differently than the person who wrote the sentence intended.
Only sometimes. Only in legitimate English ways. If you don't say aliens, then aliens are not implied by "third party". That's not clarification. That's a complete change in meaning.
>I'm trying to show you an example of me doing to you what you are doing to me.
But you're failing. You're NOT quoting me with full context. I quoted you with full context. Your OP in no way even implies aliens. That's not me interpreting what you wrote differently. That's not me interpreting what you wrote in an illegitimate interpretation (not allowed by rules of English). You chopped off "party", which was the noun in my statement, which isn't singular, and you fixated on the POSSIBILITY of a party being singular as if it was a CERTAINTY. That's the difference.
>When I originally read your comment, my brain automatically interpreted it as a single person because it is a legitimate way to read the sentence.
Yes. It's possible for a third (human) party to be a single person. But you fixated on that possibility as if it were impossible for a third party to be any more than a single person. That's the problem. It's foolish for a single person to judge all of humanity's ethics at once. What would that even mean?
>I finally went back and reread what you wrote and realized that I made a mistake in my interpretation of what you said.
Thank you.
>I easily could rewrite everything I said previous to now in reference to a group and it would still be just the same.
No. It goes from completely impractical to quite practical, if you use groups of people as third parties instead of an individual.
>Even the idea of taking someone and separating them from humanity so that they could be uninterested could be considered unethical.
Makes no sense, and is entirely based on your errant interpretation. We both agree that this idea is unethical. But, it's not what I said, and it's not even implied by what I said.
>My point is that, to judge the entire human civilization as a whole, you must find someone 100% disinterested.
Is wrong. You don't have to find anyone 100% disinterested. Just someone mostly disinterested, enough disinterest to be useful as a mediator between the first (human) parties.
>And even if you have this person a job, for life let's say, what's to stop them from becoming corrupt? What's to stop bribes or threats from happening? Who should pick this person?
Also makes no sense if rewritten from individual to group. There is no person or group that needs to have this job for life. You get the cheapest, disinterested-enough people, least likely to be corrupted to serve for the appropriate ethical judgements. We already do this with jury selection. What's to stop juries from becoming corrupt? What's to stop bribes or threats from happening? Who should pick these people? The answers are already existent. We should use disinterested (obv not 100%, because that doesn't exist) people to monitor human ethics, just like we already do, more of the time, for more decisions, because it makes the decisions better, which makes the world better.
>you could have used slightly different wording or punctuation in an attempt to avoid what turned out to be my mistake.
No. I used (human) to explicitly rule out, and prevent you from mistaking my statement as allowing for third parties to be any AI or inhuman BI. It's not possible for anyone who speaks English to interpret (human) as the noun. Party is the noun (or third party). It's entirely your mistake. You misinterpreted my statement in an illegitimate (by English rules) way. Human can't be the noun there.
>You disagree with me on certain foundational concepts of ethics and the definition of disinterested.
Not sure what those are. Pretty sure we agree about disinterested, and both have explicitly stated that there's no such thing as a perfectly, 100% disinterested person for judging ethics of other people. But that doesn't matter. Because a very disinterested person is still useful for judging ethics of other people.
>I have stalwartly focused on trying to clarify
No. You tried to change, not clarify, the meaning of your statement.
>human ethics should be monitored by an uninterested third party
is true, and I agree with it.
>I[...] desire to have aliens come judge us as a species.
is NOT a clarification of
>human ethics should be monitored by an uninterested third party
It's a completely different statement. Quit your bullshit.
>you have shown no signs of wanting to end this peacefully.
There is no violence happening here. WTF are you talking about? Discussing things with words is peaceful. Violence is un-peaceful. Don't threaten to block me because you don't like having your failings pointed out to you. That's weak.
Shadowkiller00 t1_jcgk4t5 wrote
You have made it clear that you are incapable of adjusting your world view to allow for others views to be different from your own. Blocked.
Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments