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mechwatchnerd t1_isnzivw wrote

Indeed and rising demand vs supply has made it very expensive. I did sales for a company that serviced them.

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Vlad_the_Homeowner t1_isorude wrote

I know the article touches on the topic of depleting the worlds helium supplies, but Reddit tends to skip anything not in the headline. NPR did a pretty good piece awhile back about how helium is the most non-renewable substance on the planet and how widely we rely on it from medical imaging, to quantum computing, to space exploration.

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MrBaker452 t1_isp44er wrote

Yet we still waste it on balloons...

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tyler1128 t1_ispvwgt wrote

We waste plenty from natural gas extraction too. Most helium comes from natural gas extraction, but not all natural gas extraction facilities capture the helium, instead just leaking it to the atmosphere, where it is extremely difficult to extract due to the very low concentration. It also tends to go toward the upper layers of the atmosphere, and can eventually escape into space.

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samaramatisse t1_isqqa5c wrote

I read something on this that said balloons and helium isn't the problem, really, because the helium used for balloons is not anywhere near "pure" enough for things like MRIs, etc. Like it's a byproduct of making the super pure stuff. It's not taking away the supply, but there is less to be found to begin with.

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Delicious-Stretch836 t1_isr0fxr wrote

we do not waste liquid helium on balloons. Getting helium into liquid form is not trivial.

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j-random t1_isotzw4 wrote

Soon enough we'll have fusion power plants, and we'll be able to make as much helium as we want!

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Khourieat t1_isov7ap wrote

The technology is just 20 years away!

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Garlien t1_isp6ov5 wrote

We already know how to fuse helium, just not in an energy-producing way. If we were willing to accept the energy cost, we could fuse enough to keep essential systems such as MRIs online.

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Khourieat t1_ispbq38 wrote

That doesn't seem like it'd address the cost concern, which is the only concern...

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Garlien t1_ispn6tw wrote

If we literally run out of helium, an inefficient fusion reactor would likely be more cost efficient than mining it from outer space.

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Efficient-Library792 t1_isqsgf9 wrote

I think you underestimate what it costs to run even an energy neutral fusion plant. There are a few around the world and they cost 10 figures to build and probably 8 to run. Amd they likely produce tiny amounts of helium

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r4tch3t_ t1_isr2pei wrote

It used to be always 50 years away, the progress in the last few of decades has indeed shifted the time line to a perpetual 20 years now. Hopefully in the next decade or 2 we can get that down to a perpetual 10 years!

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EdofBorg t1_isp9s2i wrote

Redditors like you to put a /s after sarcasm.

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VolkspanzerIsME t1_ispatif wrote

If it's well written sarcasm the /s shouldn't be necessary.

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EdofBorg t1_issqx51 wrote

In today's Dunning-Kruger environment it is difficult to know if someone is being sarcastic or are just genuinely dumb as a post.

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BarneyFifesSchlong t1_isozsjr wrote

We are 20 years away from fusion power plants. Of course, we were 20 years away 40 years ago too.

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junkdumper t1_isp3rb1 wrote

At least we're building them at scale now. That's a hell of a lot closer than we were 20 years ago.

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silverback_79 t1_ispcszt wrote

As keeper of the plane crash food stores, I ate all of the food last night because rescue will probably come in 2-3 days!

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squidvalley t1_ispvxnw wrote

we won't run out for 15 years, that's like forever from now

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Uncle_Budy t1_isp2661 wrote

Is there much quantum computing actually going on? Or is it more, it will need helium WHEN we start quantum computing?

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tyler1128 t1_ispxwff wrote

Beyond research, no. Quantum computing still has many hurdles to overcome before it reaches the point where it is useful for practical applications. Current quantum computers need to be as cold as possible because heat causes the quantum state to "break" (decoherence). The lower the temperature, the longer the state can remain entangled, on average. Liquid helium happens to have the lowest known boiling point, and it also does not ever freeze at standard pressure.

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Jaggedmallard26 t1_ispgzkz wrote

If you do further research you will find that what is running out is a very specific federal stockpile that has been artificially deflating (heh) prices since the age of airships, in fact your article doesn't actually say that theres an inability to produce more, just that at present only 3 states sell it but other major states are considering starting production. Once its depleted we won't run out of helium, we'll just start extracting it from the Earth again. Already colossal quantities of easily capturable helium are let to escape the atmosphere during natural gas extraction and other mining. Helium's role as a common fission product also means the Earth is constantly generating more.

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CaptJellico t1_ispokgw wrote

It's ironic that one of the most abundant and useful substances in the universe is comparatively rare on our planet.

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Johannes_P t1_isqam5k wrote

Was it Air Liquide?

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mechwatchnerd t1_issbot2 wrote

It was a very small company that sold and serviced refurbished GE CTs and serviced MRIs. I remember our technicians going on emergency calls for helium fills.

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danathecount t1_isr03ii wrote

How much does service for an MRI machine cost each year?

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CascadingMonkeys t1_isny9wf wrote

And we waste it on balloons, despite the fact that it is a finite resource.

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WahooSS238 t1_iso6916 wrote

The US strategic helium reserve will last for about a century at the current consumption rate. After that, helium will have to be pulled from the atmosphere. It’s more expensive than mining it, but we already use the same process for gases with a lower concentration. We’re not running out of helium.

That said, fuck balloons.

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nzhockeyfan t1_isofukf wrote

Think you're getting some terms mixed up. The "national Helium Reserve" is a storage facility that is being drawn down because the us government doesn't think it's necessary anymore. When talking about a resource, helium reserves are how much there is available that can be produced at current prices. A resource is the total amount known about, even if it is too expensive to produce now. I didn't see your 100 year figure, but if it is the reserve, then when the price goes up, more will be added to the reserve.

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PuffyPanda200 t1_ispb3un wrote

There are reserves in Africa

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Jaggedmallard26 t1_isphhw7 wrote

There are reserves everywhere, helium is an incredibly common fission product and thanks to the Earths core being a giant radioactive sphere more is constantly being pumped into the Earth. Then because helium is so small it easy travels through permeable rocks and builds up. The amount of helium vented every day during natural gas extraction is mind boggling.

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Orvanis t1_iso0n4q wrote

While I don't disagree that balloons are a massive waste, there are different "grades" of helium, and these MRI machines require one of the purest forms/grades. Balloons typically use the lowest grade.

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Terror_from_the_deep t1_iso48gm wrote

Yes, but the atomic helium is what is in short supply. We can refine the low grade helium and must.

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ladan2189 t1_isp4opv wrote

Atomic helium? Are you suggesting that molecular helium is a thing lol

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Terror_from_the_deep t1_isp9s6i wrote

No, just clarifying that even if the gas is 'dirty' what we want are the helium atoms, and we can purify the gas as much as we need. It doesn't matter if it's a lower grade we should still preserve it is all I meant.

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Isopbc t1_isp96z4 wrote

Well, alpha particles are a thing, but I’m pretty sure that’s not what OP meant either.

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5up3rK4m16uru t1_ispe0jt wrote

It can form compounds with Sodium. And you only need about a million atmospheres of pressure to keep it stable.

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Neokon t1_isp1l3v wrote

Why don't we just make helium? I mean if the sun can do it, then how hard can controlled fusion be?

/S Incase it wasn't obvious

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Jaggedmallard26 t1_isphnpv wrote

> Why don't we just make helium

Its fairly easy the same way we "make" iron or other common metals. We mine it because its abundant in the earths crust compared to what we require. There is no helium shortage, there is one national stockpile running low and a huge amount being vented because the national stockpile makes capture uneconomical.

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Neokon t1_ispllxs wrote

Dude it was a /s it was meant as a joke. I thought the controlled fusion would be a bit of a tip off.

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BattleHall t1_ispbxqh wrote

Well, yes and no. Helium is actually a byproduct of natural gas extraction, but generally it’s not separated and captured (which is certainly possible) because it wasn’t economical. If wholesale helium prices were to rise beyond a certain point, those supplies would almost certainly come online.

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WormRabbit t1_ispz6oq wrote

It's not a finite resource. Helium is among the most common byproducts of nuclear fission (not fusion). Every nuclear reactor produces plenty of helium. In fact, the war in Ukraine had a noticeable effect on helium supply, because Ukraine has many nuclear reactors.

Consequently, it is also renewable within the Earth's crust, though I don't know whether it renews fast enough to matter.

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Skud_NZ t1_isoychh wrote

I've never heard of a liquid helium balloon

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alrdop90172 t1_isnzntd wrote

They don't turn them off because it costs more to make them cold again than the electricity they would save

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Uncle_Budy t1_isp228u wrote

Anyone who does annual training at a facility with a magnet knows: THE MAGNET IS ALWAYS ON!

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PuffyPanda200 t1_ispazsy wrote

I did fire protection engineering and one of the business segments is healthcare (I still do fire protection engineering but in a different area now).

There are special non-ferrous (aka non-magnetic, they use Aluminum) pipe, sprinklers, fittings, etc. that are mainly used for MRI rooms. There are also nonferrous fire extinguishers located outside the rooms, these are typically a white and light blue coloring as opposed to the traditional red. There are also required to be big signs for firefighters to not enter the MRI room.

There are stories of firefighters going into MRI rooms (either they didn't notice the sign or it was not properly marked) and having their fire fighting ax ripped out of their hands by the magnet.

Then the problem is that the ax is basically stuck to the machine. Turning off the magnet is thousands of dollars so they will try to pull the ax off the the magnet with rope and a bunch of guys, sometimes that works, sometimes it does not.

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peoplerproblems t1_isqiyjt wrote

Yeah I want to see them try that on a 7T

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DariusMajewski t1_isqkzp3 wrote

Oh god the axe head would probably weld itself to something with the amount of force it would hit. Are 7Ts used in mainstream medical imaging yet? My dad is an MRI tech and just got a new 3T at his hospital.

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peoplerproblems t1_isqzha4 wrote

Yes! But only the big ones. Mayo Clinic is the only one I know of that got one in 2017

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PuffyPanda200 t1_isqmy85 wrote

I think that '7T' refers to 7 Teslas. I think (note that I am an engineer and not really involved in the response to the fires) that the main determining factor to if they can pull the ax off of the magnet is how close the ax got to the magnet. The force of the pull of the magnet is inverse (or inverse squared) to the distance so if the ax gets really close to the magnet then it is basically impossible.

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Illustrious_Crab1060 t1_ittuopi wrote

Why can't they cut the power to the magnet, without doing a quench? Or is it not an electromagnet?

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PuffyPanda200 t1_itv8gj3 wrote

It is an electron magnet. The medium that holds the electric flow to create the magnetic field is a superconductor, so no energy is needed to maintain the flow, so cutting power doesn't really help.

The aforementioned medium is kept cold by liquid Helium.

As stated I do fire protection, my explanation may be rudimentary in some ways.

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parallax1 t1_isp4nia wrote

Quenching them is when you really get screwed on cost.

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-HardGay- t1_isojxit wrote

It's also used in intra-aortic balloon pumps because it's inert enough to not cause serious problems if a balloon were to rupture. Though in 100 years we will probably have much better technology and not require them for anyone anymore. LVAD technologies are pretty amazing.

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Vlad_the_Homeowner t1_isot4vt wrote

IABP use helium because theoretically the less-dense gas results in quicker inflation/deflation, but I don't know that it's ever been demonstrated to be more clinically effective. They can also use C02, which is just as readily absorbed.

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Jaggedmallard26 t1_isphybm wrote

Helium is also pretty nice to work with, non-reactive, stable, easy to flush out of a system (compared to heavier stable noble gasses) and non-toxic. Its also relatively abundant compared to what we need it for.

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-HardGay- t1_ist3t68 wrote

I reckon theoretically either are still dangerous enough to lead to embolism depending on the amount of gas entrapment. So perhaps I should revise the statement so it doesn't imply there isn't much risk when there have most likely been documented case reports.

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EdofBorg t1_isp9lc9 wrote

Most helium is recovered from natural gas deposits. It's disappearing fast. And its not like Hydrogen which we can just split from water so we aren't going to make more.

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Perpetually_isolated t1_ispsbnk wrote

Isn't it one of the most abundant elements in the universe?

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EdofBorg t1_issld05 wrote

Yup. 2nd only to Hydrogen. Stars are mostly Hydrogen and Helium. It is estimated that 25% of all mass in the universe is helium. But given its properties its hard to hold onto. It's chemically inactive so it doesn't stick to anything so it isn't locked up say like Hydrogen and Oxygen are in water which stays put. Hence the oceans.

Helium is created by fusion and fission. The sun, and all stars, make helium from hydrogen and in earth radioactive decay knocks off helium atoms from Uranium and what not that gets trapped until it finds a way out and our gravity is too weak to hold onto it. Pretty much boiling off into space. It can be recovered from the atmosphere but the process is kind of costly. Easier to separate it from Natural Gas at the moment.

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fredsam25 t1_iso3ny0 wrote

MRI machines are currently being developed that could run on liquid hydrogen and even liquid nitrogen. The downside is of course cost, as these new machines cost a lot more. The thing that will drive the mass adoption of them will be a vast increase in the cost of helium or the complete collapse of the supply.

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WahooSS238 t1_iso6dby wrote

Liquid hydrogen seems like it would be a massive safety hazard, no?

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fredsam25 t1_isoekpj wrote

Hazards can be managed. It's just about cost.

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bundt_chi t1_isol6c2 wrote

Most medical facilities already have lines to supply oxygen throughout a building which is itself a dangerous gas. I would think they should be relatively well equipped to manage the risks of hydrogen.

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Kantas t1_isoz6wx wrote

Plus, if the liquid O2 and liquid H2 lines rupture and mix we will get the first lunar hospital as well!

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mrbellthebutler t1_isp3q13 wrote

Oxygen units gaseous form only becomes dangerous when it makes up 23% (it only makes up 21% of the air we breath) of the surrounding atmosphere. Oxygen arrives at hospitals in liquid form and goes through a process to turn it back into a gas which is easier to move through the hospital. Also, gases such as nitrous oxide, entinox (50/50 nitrous oxide and oxygen) and heliox are generally present in them. Hydrogen lines have a whole new set up to work on. For example releasing hydrogen gas you have to put it into a bucket of water and release it that way not straight into the atmosphere.

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bundt_chi t1_ispc97c wrote

I don't think MRI machines would require a liquid hydrogen supply line, i may be wrong. My point was that they likely already have and understand hazardous gas management procedures.

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mrbellthebutler t1_ispo090 wrote

No you are right. I was more thinking along the lines of hydrogen in general being used if it could be. You are also correct on the procedures etc. Part of my job is I am a Medical Gas AP so I am authorized to work on pharmaceutical, technical & medical gases so I know exactly what you mean in regard to management procedures.

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Fluffy-Jackfruit-930 t1_isq34hc wrote

No one is using hydrogen. Nitrogen is old and obsolete.

The current technology is "zero-cryogen" superconducting magnets. These use conventional niobium-titanium LTS magnets which are cooled by direct conduction to a heat exchanger in which is circulated a few grams of cold helium. This is a big change from the older generation of MRI technology which immersed the magnets in up to 150 kg of liquid helium, and used a "cold-head" to recondense helium which boiled off.

Zero cryogen magnets have several advantages, not just the fact that they don't need 100 kg+ of helium. The coolant circuit is sealed, so there is no leakage or boiloff. Similarly, there is no loss of coolant in the event of quench or emergency ramp down. A quench on an immersed magnet is a big problem, and recovery can take days. You can often recover a quench on a zero-cryogen magnet with a power cycle, which will initiate an automatic cool-down and ramp.

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DishGroundbreaking87 t1_isnz27h wrote

That sounds like the perfect setup for a superhero origin story

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bizarre_coincidence t1_isoq2ey wrote

And if you think it is funny when you breathe in helium, you should see what happens when you drink it!

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DracoSolon t1_isq2rdb wrote

Someone knew how to sabotage a caterpillar drive in a way that was not easy to find.

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dudicus1414 t1_isqsh8k wrote

Oh good. I’ve been looking for something to keep my superconductive magnets cold.

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FluffyTyra t1_isnxnul wrote

The high pitched whirling noise kinda gave it away 😉

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RRumpleTeazzer t1_isp0jby wrote

It might be the best suited one (otherwise it wouldn’t get used), but not the perfect one. It’s expensive as hell, supply is basically nonexistent, and earth is constantly evaporating Helium in the upper atmospheres.

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mrbellthebutler t1_isp2xgc wrote

First off it should be NMRI but they drop the N part (nuclear) as it sounds less scary for patients! Secondly, there are out there MRI machines which dont need Helium. I have recently worked at a hospital which had 2 installed one was helium free the other traditional helium cooled.

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Bolsha t1_isq3peu wrote

I love superfluid helium.

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RedSonGamble t1_isq8np1 wrote

Oh great so not only is the MRI gunna rip the loose change I ate out of my stomach and give me cancer but now it’s an explosion waiting to happen?! With my tax dollars?!

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Devil_May_Kare t1_isqg8w5 wrote

"perfect" is a bit of a bold claim.

Edit: I see that it wasn't your claim, but the source's. It's still bold.

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jmarshallca t1_isqkl4l wrote

Does cooling an MRI actually consume the liquid helium, or is it like the coolant in a refrigerator that kind of just stays in it for the lifetime of the machine?

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Fluffy-Jackfruit-930 t1_isu74lt wrote

MRI scanners using liquid helium (most in use today) are not sealed. As a result, some helium can escape. Heat leaks into the scanner and warms the helium which boils.

Some effort is made to reduce the boil off, typically a "cold finger" (more properly called a Gifford-McMahon cryocooler) is fitted at the top of the scanner. This is basically was a metal finger poking into the space above the liquid level, cooled to -271 C. The helium vapour condenses on the finger and drips back down into the liquid.

Early versions, especially in places like the US, where helium was plentiful and dirt cheap, had relatively weak coolers, so helium would gradually boil off, and periodic top ups would be needed. However, for about 20 years now, most MRI scanners have been zero boil-off because of upgraded coolers - so once started, shouldn't require topping up until obsolete. Older scanners may not have had facilities for recovery of the helium when obsolete - although newer ones are designed with recycling in mind, so that the magnet can go back to the factory still filled with helium, and the helium can then be recovered and reused.

However, helium can still be lost due to malfunction or maintenance. If the cooler stops for any reason, then the boiling helium won't condense and will leak out. Leave a faulty cooler long enough (a few weeks) and a top-up may be required to replace the lost helium. Some maintenance operations (such as controlled stop or start of the magnet) will also cause helium to escape enough to require a top up.

The most dramatic loss is due to a malfunction called "quench" when the magnet suddenly loses it's magnetism. A quench will typically result in the sudden eruption of all the helium from the machine - see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O_FneLbPHo for an example. Quench is a rare malfunction but does happen from time to time. Quench can also be triggered manually - usually in an emergency if someone gets pinned to the scanner by a wheelchair or something. (In this case, it appears to be a manual quench triggered as part of decommissioning of an obsolete machine, where recycling of the helium wasn't practical).

The latest machines which are now available to buy, work differently - they work more like a refrigerator. Instead of submerging the magnet internals inside a vat of liquid helium, the cooling plate of a special refrigerator is attached directly to the magnet internals. The refrigerator circuit is sealed, just like in a regular domestic fridge. No liquid helium is needed - just a few grams of helium gas inside the refrigerator circuit. There should be no loss of helium at any point in the scanner's life time.

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ItDoesntMatter59 t1_isqpq7y wrote

I had an MRI a couple weeks back. As i entered the room you could here this aaaaahhhh ….peereeeewwwe Sound repeating every second or so.

The tech said it was the helium pump.

MRI machine was in a trailer, and the power cord to it was about 3 inches diameter. They draw massive power

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Blutarg t1_isr0onn wrote

There sure are some smart people in these comments. Menawhile, I make a post in r/horror and a mod bans me for life because I linked to a page with an ad on it, and the sub rules say "no advertising".

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Alternative-Leg1095 OP t1_isr4kw8 wrote

Oof. That doesn’t make any sense. Do they use the Internet outside of Reddit

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chuttad123 t1_isor3mk wrote

Silicon is the perfect material to make semiconductors..

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