Submitted by [deleted] t3_z5s2yu in philadelphia
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Submitted by [deleted] t3_z5s2yu in philadelphia
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> palpated a weak irregular carotid but they quickly went pulseless
Especially if op is touching the person. As an EMT, how would they react showing up to a scene and random people are all over the person they're supposed to treat? In a space that already has contracted medical service providers, letting people from the crowd jump in unprompted could be seen as a big liability.
Good Samaritan laws cover the rescuer, and medically-trained people recognize each other by the handoff they give. I’ve begun an EMS work up on a train with no tools, praying I wouldn’t have to start CPR before we reached the next station, and gave a quick EMS/ALS history on a patient with an allergic reaction affecting his tongue. Sweeping airways are a bitch when you have no tools. An OD, you can breathe for them until someone arrives with an ambu-bag.
I don't know if this is what they are "supposed" to do by their job description, but it is bad for the person who is in cardiac arrest. Bystander CPR is better than no CPR at all, and based on OP's description it seems that while an EMT was on the premises, they weren't with the person in cardiac arrest.
This is the only response. Time to compressions and narcan is the vital difference between rehab and the donor pool
Going to second this as the best response. While high-quality chest compressions take practice, it isn't rocket science and even if someone had no idea what they're doing, anything is better than nothing. If someone's heart isn't beating their brain is dying by the second. It's not like if you did the worst CPR in the world you could hasten their rapidly advancing brain death.
To OP, I understand your frustration. I had a similar experience years ago. If you feel guilty, try not to. You did what you could with what you had. Thank you.
That's extremely fair, but we can't use this as a reason to overlook the obvious carelessness on the venues part here. OP was a qualified professional attempting to help in a situation they obviously saw being handled terrible, not to mention a life at risk. Terrible situation but don't get on the OP for being pissed they couldn't help. I don't get the vibe they're trashing the EMTs already there.
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Never underestimate the power trip of event security.
To be fair. Any asshole can say they say they are an EMT. Maybe OP had creds on him but the security are probably just doing what they were told to do which would have been clear the area so the EMTs can do their job.
Yeah I think the only real fuck up was not pausing the show. I hate the idea of placing "show vibes" over someone's life.
What's the bigger disappointment? Attending a show that got randomly paused for 2 minutes, or coming home after a great time at a show and learning that someone fucking died a few yards away from me and nobody bothered to help them?
100% agree with this, but pausing the show is not that simple. In my experience (concert production, 30 years) EDM events are the most loud and chaotic of them all. Coupled with the high percentage of people using large amounts of dangerous intoxicants, it is a living hell for event staff. Artists don't generally take direction from patrons about anything, much less stopping their show. People are flailing all over the place; that crowd is not exactly a controlled environment. Sober or not, most other EDM show attendees are off in their own worlds, largely unaware of what's going on with other patrons, intractable and noncompliant, often to the point of actively damaging the venue and assaulting other people. By the time security and med staff are alerted and on scene this patron could already be flatlining. It's an extraordinarily dangerous environment. Over 30 years and thousands of shows, the absolute worst events I ever had the pleasure of working were EDM. Hands down.
Also: never underestimate the bad behavior of event attendees.
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Although frustrating, if the uniformed emts are there then you should allow “the next level of care” the right of way. The bouncers don’t know you or your level of care, they did the right thing in securing the scene.
How do you know they were ODing?
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You did all you could do man, sucks that it played out the way it did :/
Anybody with enough experience can tell. Plus it’s an edm concert and aside from laced pills opiod addicts aren’t uncommon patrons
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You did the best you were allowed to do based on guidelines beyond your control. Hopefully the other EMTs were able to help 🤷🏽♂️
As an EMT, you should know that it’s best to relinquish responsibility as soon as someone on duty for that specific role arrives on scene. You know how hectic things can get in emergency situations and that people (read: on site staff) often aren’t going to be the kindest when taking over care, but in their defense, they don’t know who you are, if you have the credentials you claim to have, or if you are under the influence of any substances. I’m glad you were there to help the person in need, but I don’t think it’s right for you to throw shade at NES. They’re a great company trained specifically for venues and large events and I’ve had the pleasure of working side by side with them as a venue employee for well over a decade.
Thanks for being there. Everyone that frequents the music/party scene should look into carrying narcan if you know how to properly administer it
I’m so sorry. That sounds frustrating and awful. It’s gonna take a while to process the whole experience. Please be good to yourself as you work through the bazillion thoughts and feelings that must be going through your mind. And thank you for trying to help.
Why on earth doesn’t event staff carry naloxone? This is a no brainer.
The Fillmore has been the only venue I’ve been to where I was told to throw my Epi pens out “because they had a needle”. I carry abortive and life saving meds on me and they told me, even in proper packaging, they were not allowed in.
I could see how that same, poorly informed management could be a hassle in an emergency. Unless they were going to do compressions and breaths until services got there? Somebody had to. I hope she is okay. :/
They really need to look at how they handle events.
Agonal breathing 😔Not a good sign
They are also not super well trained. I worked there for many years and have seen the security staff go down hill. They usually don’t even have enough people to fill all the gap spots. I’ve also seen the one medic who was usually on duty, about 200lbs oversight and smoking a fat cigar 9/10. So not the best example of “to the rescue.”
I do harm Reduction work and will reach out to them and try to properly train staff.
Rule 5: All crime or missing persons posts are required to have credible proof - like a news article or police report- in order to prevent harassment and doxxing.
You were giving rescue breaths with the compressions right?
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From Alberta health services in Canada. This is a huge misconception harm reduction advocates have been trying to fight.
“While better than doing nothing, performing only chest compressions on a person experiencing an opiate overdose will simply move blood in the at body that has not been oxygenated, causing the vital organs to continue to be deprived of oxygen. Therefore giving rescue breaths to a person who has overdosed on opioids can help prevent that person from going into cardiac arrest, and has the potential to save their life. When a person who is not in cardiac arrest stops breathing and is unconscious because of an opioid overdose, it is very important to CALL 911 and continue giving rescue breaths until Emergency Medical Services arrive.”
“Cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) usually involves giving breaths and/or chest compressions. Breaths serve to re-oxygenate a person’s blood while chest compressions help circulate blood while the person’s heart is not beating. Opioid overdose is one of a number of special circumstances where it is recommended a different approach than CPR. Opioids bind to receptors in the brain responsible for controlling respiration. After binding to the receptors, they decrease the rate of breathing, which can slow to a point where a person stops breathing altogether. Opioid overdose occurs with higher potency of the opioid, reduced tolerance, co-morbidities (such as chronic lung disease) or when combined with alcohol or other drugs that depress respiration. Without enough oxygen, the heart will stop beating and the individual will die due to lack of oxygen to the vital organs particularly the brain. Although death can occur within minutes of taking an opioid, more often there is a longer period of unresponsiveness lasting up to several hours.”
Also if you ever go to an edm event again I can give you a link for prevention point Pittsburgh. They can send you free narcan. Idk if they’ll allow it inside the venue though/ which is sad .
They do. I was at this show tonight, and I bring vials of intramuscular naloxone with me in a case on my hip. Never had an issue. All the clubs in the city do in my experience (NOTO, TLA, The Ave, The Foundry, Union Transfer and The Fillmore all off the top of my head).
You should always be doing rescue breaths as well for opiod ods
Yea the problem is... nobody knows what anybody ODs on. Even in the ER, after drug testing... we still have no way of knowing.
and chest compressions are the only thing that has ever been shown to improve survival, so wasting time trying to give "rescue breaths" (which zero people, including EMTs, do correctly) is detrimental to survival.
chest compressions->transport to hospital
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You still did the right thing. They still sometime teach this opiod ods. It’s absolutely better then doing nothing. Idk why a venue would think it’s better to have no one work on an overdose then someone until emts arrive . Sad.
well no, if they have no pulse, that is the primary issue.... regardless of what drug they might have taken
Any word on what happened to them?
That’s just how event staff is. Was at a Radio 104.5 show a few years back, some girl passed out, one security guard went to her. My girlfriend is a nurse and went up to the security guard, said she was a nurse and asked if she could help, the security guard told her to go away because there were paramedics en route.
🙏🏾
Fuuuuuuuuuck.
I'd like to add more to my comment, but I think my statement thus far best encapsulates my feelings in regards to this situation. I hope the patient made it out okay.
That’s any EDM event there w the bullshit National Event Services EMTs.
You’re an EMT and didn’t have credentials on you? Isn’t that a violation?
Junkies gonna junkie
billybeat t1_ixxv13m wrote
Unless you flashed your official I’m an EMT credentials. The staff did exactly what they were supposed to do. They have no idea who you are.