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Buck_Thorn t1_jbxmsgg wrote

The truth is, there are consequences for letting infrastructure run down like that.

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Its_Nitsua t1_jc212wi wrote

Personally I don’t see the problem with a couple million gallons returning to the water table instead of watering golf courses or growing water hungry crops like almonds.

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billpalto t1_jbxud8u wrote

Elephant Butte is a big lake, but you can't eat the fish from it. They are full of mercury from the gold mines in Colorado.

Oh, and since the water is promised to Texas rice farmers, lots of the time the lake isn't really usable as a lake. The water level is so low it's more like a river. 85% empty this month.

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RadRadRiot t1_jby88e9 wrote

Grew up a few miles south of there. It’s sad how far the water line has fallen. Great place to spend a weekend as a kid. Here’s a picture of the receding levels:

https://i.imgur.com/aZA53aF.jpg

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LeSwissMcCheese t1_jc0l0jv wrote

It was amazing back then! I bought a lake house and it’s still fun and all but it is not what it was growing up. Always exciting to see the water rise but we all dread June irrigation season that keeps getting prolonged.

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OhSirrah t1_jc0qzxs wrote

I’m sorry , did you say the fish has too much murcury and they send the water for rice farming. Who wants that rice.

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OcotilloWells t1_jbz3qkz wrote

I guess people boat in it? When I was at Ft Bliss (El Paso, TX, though most of the land of the fort is in New Mexico, for those that don't know), I remember hearing about a number of drownings there, probably alcohol related.

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Spearogriffin t1_jbziyr5 wrote

Literally none of Ft. Bliss is in New Mexico, what a wierd thing to lie about/ make up.

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OcotilloWells t1_jc0ydte wrote

Clearly you've never been to Ft Bliss. Why would anyone "lie" about where an Army fort is located in /r/army?

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CassieJK t1_jc78jgx wrote

Technically McGregor, Dona Ana while part of Fort Bliss aren't Bliss might be the argument the poster is makin? IDK I'm on your side though.

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Kinmuan t1_jc1v4b5 wrote

Lmao it’s headquartered in El Paso, but extends well beyond Texas.

What a weird thing to say someone is making up when a 5 second google would tell you you’re wrong.

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schadenfreudern t1_jbzrouy wrote

I would assume he's talking about going into White Sands, and since the areas are so close perhaps even adjacent, just assumed it was part of the contiguous base.

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OcotilloWells t1_jc0y64k wrote

I had to drive past the World's Largest M80 firecracker every day. In New Mexico (fireworks are banned in El Paso county). Turned right at the Otero county, NM jail. Volunteered at the Chaparral Middle School. McGregor is in New Mexico. Doña Ana is in New Mexico, Oro Grande, New Mexico. Yeah, it borders White Sands Missile Range, which is miles from Texas. Something like 80 percent of Bliss is in New Mexico.

I dunno why that guy would say I'm lying. When he clearly has never been there.

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Flimsy-Lie-1471 t1_jbxln2l wrote

I was told years ago by an environmental engineer that the return on investment on water pipe replacement is about eight years. This is why I have such a hard time understanding why I always see that its not affordable to repair the lines. New water lines have a 50 year minimum life expectancy (in reality much longer with maintenance).

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terpin t1_jbxpw52 wrote

It's because the decision makers aren't engineers, they're bean counters looking to make a name for themselves as cost-cutters that'll be in and out long before the consequences of their decisions are made clear.

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Flimsy-Lie-1471 t1_jbxqf1g wrote

maybe, but having a failing system likely means they will be out sooner rather than later

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SheriffComey t1_jby7sx6 wrote

Having worked for state and local government your kind of thinking is NOT rewarded.

And often your concerns are ignored multiple times and you're told "Just do what we said".

Don't get me started on projects that require municipalities, the state, and the federal government to work together.

Also municipalities often use money in ways that has the shortest ROI. We, the state, told one that we'd be redesigning the medians in the next month so they need to hold off on planting their new landscaping plans. They did it anyway because they knew that not only could they get the state to reimburse them for that, but sue the state and get more money to do whatever they wanted as it was likely not earmarked.

Oh and that municipality blamed the state for everything and the city council members used it as reelection fodder.

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Flimsy-Lie-1471 t1_jby9a4v wrote

I guess that is the way where you live. Honestly about a dozen years ago several communities in my local area took on a multi year project updating all the underground utilities; water, sewer and gas lines. They even put some of the electric underground at the time. It was a pain in the ass for about three years, but it was done and everyone is happy with the result. I know part of the money was from the 2008 bailout, but the rest was financed.

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SheriffComey t1_jbybarl wrote

You're talking local and sure if you have enough people, money, and professions(i.e. lawyers) willing to put in the work and for years, sure you can get shit done. My community was able to stop a planned roadway expansion behind it but took 7 years and nearly every lawyer living there to help throw their weight in for many years.

But again, that's local and in small areas. Start trying to get cities, counties, and states to do that and consistently.

I worked with multiple State DOTs and my stories here in Florida DOT are the same in at least 30 other states.

Small municipalities (even business owners)can be a huge fuckin thorn in state projects, especially roadway widening but to do it across the board and constantly and definitely where infrastructure is concerned.... good luck without metric fuck ton of work and the need to have huge portions of the community and frankly most people are too busy working to even know what's going on .

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goldybear t1_jbyhba2 wrote

That’s a pretty flimsy lie 😏

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terpin t1_jbxqr3d wrote

Government service is a stepping stone to working in the private sector for a lot of people, a lot more lucrative that way sadly.

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sndream t1_jbycpkk wrote

You wish bean counter making the decision. It's up to the politician.

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ScientificSkepticism t1_jc4s718 wrote

Yeah, bean counters would look at an 8 year payback and go "eh... okay, borderline, lets find the budget for it."

Politicians run on 4 year election cycles. Depending where you are in the cycle, it might need results in as little as a year or they won't get any payoff.

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Xivvx t1_jbxrwbo wrote

The problem isn't usually replacing the physical line, it's all the steps you need to do before you replace the line. And then fix everything back up after.

Like dig up roadways, deal with other aging infrastructure, etc. Those costs are usually a lot more, depending on job ofc.

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Leviathant t1_jby0i76 wrote

Anecdote time! We did a gut-job renovation on what is now our home in Philadelphia.

Contractors jack-hammered the street and the sidewalk to run a new connection from the water main in the middle of the street. You need a permit to block the street for a day or two, a backhoe comes out to break up and move the hard stuff, a bunch of dudes with shovels worked through the dirt, put down new pipe, and put steel plates down on the street to cover the work temporarily. The bolts on the steel plate that are meant to keep it fastened to the street inevitably pop out of the street within days, so all day, all night, vehicles drive over the plates with a CLUNK CLUNK that shakes your entire house - especially dump trucks. Flatbed trucks make a sound like a traffic accident when they go over these plates.

New sidewalk is put down pretty quickly. Weeks(?) later, contractors come out to pour concrete over the new work in the street, and put a temporary asphalt patch on top of that. A few weeks later, the asphalt patch has compressed, and that has to be re-filled - which takes a month or two to actually happen. And then anywhere from six to eight months later, the Streets Department comes out, blocks the street for a day, scrapes out the patch job, and finishes the surface properly.

Oh, and we had to pay $200 for a new water meter, too.

Now, this was done as part of a comprehensive construction project. If I wasn't a crazy person, and just bought a regular home that mostly just worked, I could see the appeal of not giving a toss about what's going on between my home and the middle of the street. And as far as the city goes, Philadelphia doesn't even do street sweeping, there is absolutely no way they'd proactively take on an infrastructure upgrade project like this on their own. If the street consistently develops sinkholes, they'll fix it, but now you're looking at months without vehicular access to the street in question, and that kind of disruption can cause catastrophic damage to small businesses.

That said, Truth or Consquences infrastructure is barely a century old, and billionaires own significant tracts of nearby land, this does seem like a solvable problem.

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Flimsy-Lie-1471 t1_jby4eyl wrote

Fun fact. I live in PA. The city we were discussing was Philly with its wooden pipes that lose about 30% of their water.

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Leviathant t1_jby7qe8 wrote

Yup! I work in Old City, and have walked past work where they've pulled the wooden mains out for replacing with modern infrastructure. Blew my mind a little bit.

The pressure here on the third floor ain't great either.

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AdministrationNo9238 t1_jc1yzoh wrote

man, i bought a house in philly. previous owners had had the sewer line replaced, but didn’t bother to replace the lead pipe supply line while they had it open. WTF?

Best part? i live on a trolley line, so that complicates things.

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83-Edition t1_jbzcxf1 wrote

Being downtown during the big lead pipe replacement project was kind of a nightmare.

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IOnlyLurk t1_jby5giu wrote

Towns like this simply cannot afford modern services. They have a population density of 216 people per square mile and a median household income of $21,000. Too few taxpayers, paying taxes that are too low, spread out over an area that is too large.

Their current way of living simply isn't sustainable.

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Flimsy-Lie-1471 t1_jbzqjxq wrote

That makes more sense. I live in a much higher density area. We also have rain.

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SkiingAway t1_jc1zsar wrote

No, you've just chosen a bad metric.

The population of the town is not evenly distributed over the land area of the town.

A brief glance at a map indicates that pretty much the entire population of the town lives in a reasonably compact street grid between I-25 and the Rio Grande, while the municipal borders of the town include a vast area of empty desert to the north with near-zero development/infrastructure/population. Just as there aren't even roads there, there also aren't water pipes to maintain.

The US Census Demographic Data Map Viewer indicates that portion of town where anyone actually lives is around 1k people per square mile, and even that is probably understating the density of where the water pipes actually run, since the borders of those census tracts still include some big chunks of empty land.

That doesn't exactly make it a metropolis, but it is probably 5x+ the population density of the number you've come up with, and a much more reasonable density for having a municipal water system.

Edit: And beyond this, being somewhat of a tourist town, the need for services is substantially higher than raw population numbers would suggest. There's at least ~20 hotels/motels/RV parks within town limits.

The article notes: > "The city can attract more than 100,000 visitors during holiday weekends as people flock to the hot springs and the state's largest lake"

Those are obviously not all there at once, but the water system is clearly serving far more than the ~6k year round population, as well.

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edwinthowaway t1_jbyewms wrote

Civil engineer that works in the water field. That’s bullshit. Water mains now cost over $250 PER FOOT. Often a lot more. That’s $1.3M+ per mile.

Meanwhile, fixing a water main break is about $4000. So that mile of main would have to break hundreds of times before it is cheaper to replace.

We replace mains because all those breaks costs customers money. But for us, it is almost always cheaper to repair rather than replace.

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SkiingAway t1_jc220ec wrote

How much of that cost is actual cost of the pipe vs more variable costs?

I'd think in a small town with not a lot of other infrastructure underground and a relatively mild climate/shallower frost line, you'd be coming in towards the low end of things in terms of per foot costs.

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ScientificSkepticism t1_jc4se4h wrote

If we round the figures a little, about 0% of it is pipe cost.

Everything important is the cutting/digging/trenching costs.

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edwinthowaway t1_jc2igzn wrote

While utility conflicts can be a problem, it's not too crazy outside of downtown areas. Often, the main just goes back in the same trench as it was and we use a temporary above ground bypass during construction.

The cost of the pipe is only part of it. Opening the pavement, excavation, backfill materials, pavement restoration, and maintenance of traffic add up to a lot.

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Flimsy-Lie-1471 t1_jbyr6kb wrote

I can only tell you what the engineers told us when they were doing the project. I did look it up and it was 2011 and that is what they explained to us at the meeting. If you have an issue with it then take it up with them.

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Dunbaratu t1_jbyb1ah wrote

You sort of answered it yourself with this phrase:

"about 8 years".

Is there an elected position with a term that long? Probably not. Mayor, Alderman, etc - they all have shorter terms.

That means you are asking elected officials to invest in infrastructure that doesn't pay off until they're out of office and their successor gets to take the credit for it. A lot of political damage comes from the wrong politician being blamed/credited for things where the cause and effect occur more than 1 term apart on the timeline.

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calm_chowder t1_jc57d8v wrote

Because most of this infrastructure was built in the 50s and 60s when the government actually had money to spend due to a 75% corporate/millionaire tax rate and invested it in infrastructure and improving life for Americans. It's impossible to make this infrastructure indestructible and it was always meant to be maintained or failures are unavoidable.

Unfortunately Republicans (esp Reagan) gutted the government's income (by slashing corporate and the obscenely rich's tax rate to near zero), deregulated everything, ended infrastructure maintenance as "wasteful government spending" and basically sabotaged the future of our country. Things will only get worse as infrastructure is more and more stressed and out of date/neglected and the climate changes.

These accidents are becoming more and more common and that trend will continue, and as other countries keep pace with modernization the US will fall comparatively further and further behind until in many ways we're no longer a first world nation, at least in comparison to all others. It's inevitable with the path we're on, which shows no signs of or even avenues for changing. In fact in almost every single respect we're already dead last on every single metric of first world nations.

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mattyoclock t1_jcb16ao wrote

It’s bad politics to fix pipes. You won’t see any return during your term in office, and more importantly none of your voters want their yards and roads torn up for months and to have construction crews outside their homes.

It’s a real problem.

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Flimsy-Lie-1471 t1_jcc82zz wrote

My buddy has been a township supervisor for over 20 years. So are two other guys on the board. I’m sure there’s a payoff to them for it.

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mattyoclock t1_jcc8kxw wrote

Eh, you can't gaurantee you'll get re-elected, and the odds of that happening go way down when you dig up people's yards.

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Flimsy-Lie-1471 t1_jcc9mrt wrote

well he got over 80% of the vote the last two elections, and people like not having water mains breaking all the time.

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mattyoclock t1_jccb660 wrote

Good for him, and maybe that does give him that freedom, although it would depend on your state whether he would have that power or budget.

But that's not a solution for the whole country. Not every municipality is run by your friend.

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Flimsy-Lie-1471 t1_jccbw98 wrote

if you elect good people, you get good results. If you elect clowns, you get a circus.

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mattyoclock t1_jcccsno wrote

Right, and if you set up the system of elections in such a way that solving a problem makes it less likely you get elected, that problem won't get solved.

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TheDadThatGrills t1_jby5bml wrote

The town changed their name to be the same as a Game Show to win their contest

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[deleted] t1_jbycx0m wrote

And never got paid.

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TheDadThatGrills t1_jbydwt2 wrote

That's bitter truth with lasting consequences

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[deleted] t1_jc0c1cl wrote

Hah! I wonder if they’ll discover any bodies as the lake dries up. There was a serial killer there in the 80’s? The toy box killer. I believe he worked for the park services and many of his victims were never found. :(

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tarasv3 t1_jc22117 wrote

None of the bodies were found. The last victim escaped wearing only a dog collar after she smashed his girlfriend with a lamp and booked it. That’s why they were worried they couldn’t convict and gave him a plea deal for shorter sentence for the girlfriend and his daughter who also helped. Then he died before serving a day of his actual sentence. Both women are free now.

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[deleted] t1_jc2iyip wrote

Oh, none were? Guess the chance of them finding some in elephant butte just went up! I drive through TorC once a year (twice if you’re counting the trip back) It’s the middle of nowhere. Not hard to find a place to hide things, especially if you know the area well, and have access, as a park ranger would. :(

I do like to think of them at peace now, under those beautiful New Mexican night skies. Rest in Peace ladies, you are not forgotten.

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somereallyfungi t1_jbyxovd wrote

Also, the home of the Toybox Killer, David Parker Ray. He's one of those people that keep me up at night, worrying how many others aren't caught.

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me_brewsta t1_jc3ulma wrote

Oh wow TIL. I always figured it was some old timey wild west name like Tombstone or Sweetwater.

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IWASRUNNING91 t1_jbxjuie wrote

Critical resources being lost during an intense time of need?!

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Harmonic_Flatulence t1_jbyzwnd wrote

>Originally known as Hot Springs, Truth or Consequences underwent a rebrand in 1950 when the radio game show "Truth or Consequences" vowed to broadcast its 10th-anniversary episode in the first U.S. city to change its name to the moniker. Hot Springs won the national contest.

For those terribly curious about the name of this town! I know I was.

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BlueFox5 t1_jbzp1wd wrote

Related but not really, there was a town in NW Colorado named Artestia. Not much there but just north of the town is where Dinosaur National Monument was created. The monument crosses the UT/CO border. There was a plan to build the Echo Park Dam in the monument just after the confluence of the Green and Yampa Rivers, filling up miles of canyon land to make giant lakes. With the new potential tourism prospects, Artesia renamed the town Dinosaur, with statues all around town and street names of dinosaurs that weren’t even found in the area.

Things were looking up for the community, but the Sierra Club, preservationists, and environmentalists made a big campaign to stop the dam from being built. It was the first huge win for the Sierra Club and it created a lot of momentum for environmentalists at the time, who had just had a devastating loss at Hetch Hetchy (now known as Yosemite National Park). Because Echo Park Dam was shelved, they went downstream to build the Glen Canyon Dam in AZ on the Colorado river, filling up that canyon land to make Lake Powell.

The tourism never manifested in Dinosaur, CO. The major fossil discoveries, including the famous “Bone Wall” are located on the Utah side, while the Colorado side contains miles of rivers, canyons, and wilderness which is difficult to access. You won’t find much in town these days other than a gas station, liquor store, a dispensary, and an ice cream shop.

It’s easy for me to say this since I don’t live there (I did live in Jensen for a brief time), but keeping those canyons in-tact was the best decision. I highly recommend going to the UT side to see the fossils and possibly my #1 favorite hiking trail ever called Sounds of Silence trail. But the best kept secret of the monument is those rivers. Especially the Yampa. One of the last free-flowing rivers that feeds the Colorado River. Absolutely gorgeous, teeming with wildlife, and some legendary white water rapids. The rafting trips down either river is an experience you’ll never forget.

As for what was Artesia, well, they have a dispensary and a liquor store who largely serve the neighboring towns on the Utah side…

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Redawg660 t1_jby7h4u wrote

I spent a 32 year career in public works at a major P.N.W. city. I can tell you that the electeds were told many times by many people like me that you can’t ignore infrastructure maintenance.I can tell you that city now has major issues with their streets, underground pipes (water and sewer) and most of their concrete structures. The City Council continues to create new bikeways, bike paths and other niceties while the pavement rots. Elect smarter people Portland.

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OcotilloWells t1_jbz497q wrote

Infrastructure maintenance costs a lot, likely to close streets for weeks to months, look ugly while being done, and may not get finished before they leave office. The niceties probably go up quickly, and are there for reelection time.

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Redawg660 t1_jbzqxmy wrote

I agree with your point. However I don’t consider it good governance to allow infrastructure to degrade while doing frilly projects. The street maintenance backlog was reported to be at 4.4 billion dollars by the Portland Auditors Office in November of 2022. When I retired in 2012 the backlog was at 975 Million and rising. I retired early to get away from the insanity of our Mayor and City Council.

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[deleted] t1_jbxtd18 wrote

[removed]

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Littlebotweak t1_jby5nn8 wrote

Sort of. It’s so much more complicated, though. If you send water to an aquifer you didn’t mean to, you’re basically giving up your right to that water. If it happens a lot, you do lose it.

Where water comes from and goes in this part of the country is a big deal with many details.

Towns mismanaging it to this extent is more like a feature than a bug. Speculators get morons elected so the town loses their water and then the water is up for grabs. It’s happening all over southern Colorado right now.

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IAm-The-Lawn t1_jbz49yh wrote

Sure, it’s just a matter of how long it takes to filter through and return to the aquifer.

It can take years or centuries, depending on what the water has to filter through among other variables like capillary action.

If you want to use the water in the near future, it’s best to not let it return to the aquifer.

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scuba_steve_b t1_jbz3fze wrote

Cactus Jack is not going to be happy about this.

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Avenkal19 t1_jbxu024 wrote

If only there had been some sort trillion dollar infrastructure bill to provide the funds to fix things like this.

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michal_hanu_la t1_jbxjqoi wrote

(Which works out to a about 25l/s, or the equivalent of a small creek.)

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SidTheSload t1_jbzfqd0 wrote

I was surprised when I learned this town was real and not just a place the Zygons took over in Doctor Who.

....unless?

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hoonoo_ t1_jc1rcxv wrote

The town agreed to be renamed after a 1950's TV game show to promote the program.

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seriousbangs t1_jbz6gri wrote

As always when it comes to these fixes, who's gonna pay for it?

You could raise the price of water to try and force people.... and then get slaughtered in the next election cycle. And that assumes you *can* force people. You can't. People don't have water leaks for fun, it's because they don't have the money to fix them. Or their apartment owners who don't care because they make the renter pay.

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nanozeus2014 t1_jc220wc wrote

someone will face the Consequences of not telling the Truth

2

classof78 t1_jbziyx8 wrote

Impressive that wooden pipes last that long.

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AMARIS86 t1_jbzwc3f wrote

There’s never any money available, except for wars. That money magically populates.

1

mgnorthcott t1_jc2agbh wrote

this is why water pipes are under pressure everywhere. leaks happen. if there was negative pressure, dirt and other contaminants would be getting in. pressure is more than just a way to get it to your house.

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I_Heart_Astronomy t1_jc4sllb wrote

Truth or Consequences N.M., King of Prussia P.A., Florida N.Y.

What other weird town names are there?

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ChaosKodiak t1_jbz6q1z wrote

I’d say more corporate greed.

−1

torpedoguy t1_jc0wblc wrote

Can't have the companies maintain the pipes though, that would be "big government" and 'impose' on their fictional-skywizard-given right to only ever make profit while socializing the losses!

It's life or death; the only choice is whose.

−2

SkiingAway t1_jc22alh wrote

This is a municipal utility, not a private company. What point are you trying to make?

0