Cruise Ship Blues has given me a new fear

Submitted by SawkyScribe t3_10pwog9 in books

I am a mild thalassaphobe on the best of days, but I don't often think about cruise ships. A floating resort? Cool, but a bit rich for my blood, never gave them the time of day. Now, I'd be terrified to set foot on a cruise ship.

In fairness, the book was published in the early 2000s, so I don't know how much of this info is out of date, but a lot of the issues discussed sound like features rather than bugs of the cruise industry.

Working conditions: 12-16 hour days for some crewmates. I've heard that they get paid pretty well but can you imagine what 70+ hr work weeks look like, especially when they're doing it for months at a time? When you work that much, I can only imagine how much standards of sanitation and maintenance must aso slip.

Skirting responsibility: the book said most ships fly under flags of convenience and use concessionaires for their goods and services. An American cruise liner can then avoid the more stringent safety and labor law requirements of the states by sailing under the flag of a more lax nation. Zoinks.

The constant use of third parties in the late 90s to early 2000s also allowed cruise companies to throw their hands up when met with complaints of customer dissatisfaction, illness, injury, and even death. The chicken gave you Salmonella? We don't know anything about that, we got it from [UNDISCLOSED DISTRIBUTOR].

Health and Safety: this is the thing that worries me the most, you are stuck in this little metal container so pray you don't get sick or feel unsafe.

In a post-covid world, the idea of cramped shared living spaces sends a shiver up my spine. These things were already incubators of rubella, food borne disease and STIs in the good ol' days, now they seem like prime covid breeding grounds. I can't imagine any ship is properly equipped to handle large scale outbreaks and that's not a comforting thought.

Reading this book has been nightmarish and I'm only halfway done. For those who have been on cruises recently or more regularly, what have your experiences been?

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boxer_dogs_dance t1_j6mu2f8 wrote

Thank you for mentioning the book. I will read it.

You have presented one side, so here are some thoughts. I appreciate the risk of norovirus and COVID is real, but sexually transmitted infections? How is it unique to cruise ships if people choose not to use condoms? Sexually transmitted diseases are also widespread on land. Some people treat cruises like Spring break, but every year, resorts on land are also full of people partying and finding people to have sex with. I have read that retirement communities also have rampant stis.

We took two elderly relatives on a cruise to Alaska and had a really nice time. They especially enjoyed the live music. The comfort of the ship made travel a reasonable choice for them. Cruise ships give disabled people access to glaciers and fjords.

There is a lot of bad industry practice in this world. I am glad there is a book calling out the cruise ships for their labor practices. Putting pressure on them to do better is a cause I that I fully support. Having said that, am I exploiting labor any less if I fly to Puerto Vallarta and stay in an all inclusive resort? Most if not all of the staff are from countries where people also see migrating to Quatar as a rational job seeking decision.

I have seen gatekeeping threads on the travel subreddits where people seem to look down on many forms of popular travel because they are not the ideal travel experience. Personally I am in favor of access to travel for the middle class, even if it doesn't exactly match my tastes and preferences.

I will have to read the book. Muckrakers have done great work historically from Uncle Tom's Cabin and Black Beauty and Upton Sinclair's the Jungle through Ralph Nader's work and Silent Spring by Rachel Carson and a Civil Action and Erin Brockavich, up to now with Empire of Pain about the Sacklers and many more.

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SawkyScribe OP t1_j6n8p4y wrote

I think for me, as much as there are issues with all forms of travel, I think those problems are amplied by the compactness of the ship.

People are hooking up in hotels yeah, but on land you have a much wider pool of people so rates of transmission are probably lower. Better access to appropriate healthcare after the fact is also available on land.

On the same topic, there's also the unique challenge of sexual assaults on board. >!Most cases were reported to be crewmates assaulting passengers as the relaxed atmosphere causes people to drop their guard. In the instances where there are rapes, it's hard to persecute because the quality of evidence rapily decays before than can reach land. Then when they hit land, they can again use flags of convenience so that their staff can't be persecuted under X country's legal board.!<

As for price, I can't speak to this personally, but I've read of people racking up massive bills due to misunderstandings of what can be considered "an all inclusive vacation". Some of that is consumer responsibility, but I'm sure cruises don't go out of their way to communicate costs to consumers.

With the labor situation, again the issue is the unique environment compounds on existing issues. 6 people sleeping in a cabin made for 1 with no ability to inform labor authorities of malpractice for weeks on end. It's not like it's ok when resorts do it either.

The accessibility angle is one I hadn't considered before. I am glad to hear that more people can enjoy more experiences due to cruise liners.

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boxer_dogs_dance t1_j6nagwz wrote

I am very happy to learn more and correct my practice where there are issues. Life is complicated but I boycotted and protested against South Africa back in the day and try to not actively collaborate with injustice.

As for boats, I like them and my grandfather served in submarines.

On my limited cruise experience, mask use is varied. There are signs warning about hand washing and specific signs instructing people to use a paper towel to touch the door to the bathrooms.

As for price, in my experience, all rules are disclosed ahead of time, but much like Casino resorts, if you get drunk and make a poor decision, there is no sympathy from the company.

Thank you for promoting the book.

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Hartastic t1_j6ocmwv wrote

> On the same topic, there's also the unique challenge of sexual assaults on board.

This is also a lot different than 30 years ago. There's basically no public area of a modern ship not covered 24/7 by security cameras.

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SawkyScribe OP t1_j6osk0e wrote

The issue is cameras don't magically fix the issue.

I think an environment that's constantly splashing drinks leads to cases of dubious consent. You see two people share a drink at a bar and then head to a cabin and the thread of evidence ends there, none of the conversation involving revoked consent is captured.

Few convictions lead to persecutions. Again, if it's bad on land, I think it's worse on a boat with fewer third parties to assist.

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Hartastic t1_j6osyj1 wrote

> You see two people share a drink at a bar and then head to a cabin and the thread of evidence ends there, none of the conversation involving revoked consent is captured.

Sure, but if they're crew they're already someplace they're not allowed to be and will lose their job for.

And there's no way to deny most of what happened.

This doesn't mean crime is impossible but being a serial rapist crew member is basically impossible. Kind of the same way murders still happen but you don't have the serial killers with 50 victims of our grandparents time because forensics are so much better than they used to be.

> Few convictions lead to persecutions.

Note that your source is, basically, the closest cruise ship equivalent of ambulance chasers. Not that some of what they're saying isn't correct but take it with a grain of salt.

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SawkyScribe OP t1_j6ow7fv wrote

It is a firm representing the victims but it's not like the cruise liners themselves will be upront with the statistics.

>They'll lose their job

That's an issue I came across in this article. Cruise liners can very easily say "he's not a sex pest, he just violated company policy".

You're right that you probably won't get repeat offenders due to CCTV, but the environment of 24 hour good vibes and festivities reminds me too much of college campuses which don't have an amazing track record for sexual offenses. I can only imagine how much of this stuff goes unreported on ships for fear of retaliation.

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Hartastic t1_j6ox20o wrote

I definitely feel like you have this idea in your head of what a cruise is like that is not that close to what it is actually like. Outside of a tiny subset, a spring break atmosphere it is not.

Generally it's closer to a week at a resort hotel that people bring their kids to.

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minimalist_coach t1_j6nr9ho wrote

I've been on nearly 20 cruises and although the things you mention are true, it seems the author is biased and trying to make it seem worse than it is.

TLDR: I love cruising, it sounds like the book is over-sensationalized, but cruising isn't for everyone.

I was also enlisted in the US Navy and my ship did a 6-month WestPacific cruise. On land many military jobs are 8 hours M-F, if you do shift work it is usually 8-hour shifts as well. In port, I worked a typical work week. As soon as we set sail our work hours changed to either 12 hours on 12 hours off or a 16-hour workday 7 days a week, with reduced hours on Sundays. Boredom and unstructured time are not good for people who are confined to a small space.

If you look at the ratio of passengers and crews on most cruise lines you'll see that there is usually 1 crew member for every 2-3 passengers. Not all crew member's jobs are directly related to the customer's experience, there are entire departments dedicated to cleanliness and maintenance. Because most ships have services 24/7 it is perpetually being cleaned and repaired.

Although the vast majority of cruise lines are registered under foreign flags that doesn't mean there isn't a standard they are required to meet. For a cruise ship to take on passengers at US ports the US Coast Guard requires them to meet the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS). This is a strict set of rules to ensure passenger safety and crew competence. The one cruise ship that I'm aware of that flys under the US flag is the NCL Pride of America which cruises the Hawaiian Islands. The Jones act requires any non-US ship to visit at least 1 foreign port on each sailing. This ship had a primarily American crew and although the ship was practically brand new, it was the dirtiest and worst maintained ship I'd ever been on, and that includes the 40 year old US Navy ship I spent 2 years on.

On most itineraries, you are in port for several hours most days. The ship is filled with activities and events all day, from live performances in the theater, dance lessons, cooking lessons, gyms, pools, spa, yoga classes, and a kids club, you can even attend AA meetings.

There is a Dr and a sickbay available on all large ships. I'm not sure what size the ship needs to be for this to be a requirement. Keep in mind that seniors are a large part of the passenger list on many cruise ships. They have the ability to medivac people from the ship if needed.

I've never been concerned about food-borne illness, of course, this can happen to any restaurant, but to have passengers get sick from food would not be good for business. The world is too connected these days. There are entire businesses dedicated to reporting on each sailing of each ship. There is a problem with some viruses, for example, Norovirus is common on some ships and once a ship gets infected it is a big challenge to irradicate it from the ship, because the ship is never empty, they are moving passengers on as they are moving passengers off. You can often find which ships are having this problem ahead of time and take precautions or avoid the ship. We experienced this on a cruise a few years ago.

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Jack-Campin t1_j6mrf4f wrote

Had to happen. Sounds like Ballard's High-Rise meets Traven's The Death Ship.

The film rights are going to be worth a bundle.

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Hartastic t1_j6oc26h wrote

> Skirting responsibility: the book said most ships fly under flags of convenience and use concessionaires for their goods and services. An American cruise liner can then avoid the more stringent safety and labor law requirements of the states by sailing under the flag of a more lax nation.

This misses a bunch of the nuance. American maritime law is protectionist to a somewhat self-defeating degree. That is to say, probably cruise ships that operate in America probably wouldn't prefer to operate under an American flag, but that's irrelevant because they also literally can't.

Among other things, to be an American cruise ship the ship would also have to be built in America, and America currently does not have the industry to build a modern cruise ship. Basically, our shipbuilding is heavily specialized into ships that kill people. There is currently one cruise ship that is America flagged (Norwegian Cruise Line's Pride of America) which was basically built in Europe, like 1% assembled in America, and required a specific act of Congress to be considered American enough to do it.

Why you would even want to have a ship be American is a separate rabbit hole of American maritime law.

I will say, if you aren't too afraid to get on an airplane... you are much more crammed into a small space with lots of people even being in an airport than you will ever be on a ship.

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SawkyScribe OP t1_j6oqebt wrote

So I did some more reading and yeah you're right, I do find it strange that these laws were made in the 1830s though.

While it is a necessity to fly under a flag of convenience, it is interesting to note one of the things they would have to do if they were registered in the US

>The cruise ship must be staffed by U.S. crewmembers and paid based on U.S. minimum wage laws.

Again, it may not be the intended purpose, but getting to hire cleaning staff and not have to pay them American mimimum wage seems awfully convenient...

As for planes, it's an efficient mode of transport for me, not a luxury. At worst I'm there for 12 hrs? At no point am I being sold the fantasy of an air resort or expected to mix and mingle with the hundreds of people on the flight.

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Hartastic t1_j6osk6v wrote

> Again, it may not be the intended purpose, but getting to hire cleaning staff and not have to pay them American mimimum wage seems awfully convenient...

It absolutely is. In a sense it's a lot like migrant farm workers who come from Mexico to the US to pick our fruit. That's simultaneously a job that no American is willing to do for the wage it pays, and a job that is good enough / pays well enough to make sacrifices to travel and do for many Mexicans.

You talk to people who work on ships, and the story you get a lot is that, yeah, they work long hours and they're away from their families a lot of the year... but what they're paid, while by our standards really low, is also a lot more money they can make at home with the skills they have. For a lot of crew this is a sacrifice they choose to make so their kids can have better lives than they did when they were kids. I like to think I'd be willing to do the same in their situation.

You also will, for example, meet crew who are gay and from countries where it's dangerous to be gay or something similar and this is their way to be able to, essentially, escape and get to be who they are.

> As for planes, it's an efficient mode of transport for me, not a luxury. At worst I'm there for 12 hrs? At no point am I being sold the fantasy of an air resort or expected to mix and mingle with the hundreds of people on the flight.

Ok, then let me try: whatever you're picturing for crowding is probably not accurate on a modern ship. The biggest ships in the world will have thousands of passengers but also are, essentially, small floating cities.

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e_crabapple t1_j6nk57k wrote

So, you find out people are getting exploited by sketchy companies, and your reaction is to become afraid?

Don't ever read anything on the agricultural industry.

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SawkyScribe OP t1_j6nzffp wrote

The idea of being stuck on a boat is my fear rather than tremoring at the idea of exploitative migrant labor.

I've never been a bit fan of this mindset though: "You were emotionally affected by learning about industry malpractices? Better stay purposely ignorant of other industries shading doings"

Yes, reading about how big businesses operate is like staring into oblivion but it's important to stay informed.

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